Russia

Yankee_Jack

Key Player
Compromise, appeasement ... pick your evasive verb of choice ... it all points the same way: delaying a job to tomorrow.

Putin is a little man that has gone from being irritatingly tedious, to living out a delusion. Sound familiar. Now, there's a job to get done. Do it today for cost / effort A, or defer until tomorrow for cost / effort B, where B >>> A. History repeats, deja vous.

In 1936 my old man was 11 years old. Compromise, appeasement ... nobody wanted the dirty job of the moment ... moved the day of reckoning, it deferred the job. In 1943, my old man turned 18 and was drafted into RAF. Reporting a day after his 18th birthday he was immediately put on report for being a day late. He was trained as a radio op and gunner. He flew on bombers into Germany. But his active war began at least 2 may be 3 years earlier when he was a dispatch rider for civil defense carrying dispatches via motor cycle. And of course, before that from the age of 14 he was seeking cover as Swansea's industry, rail yards and town center were flattened. The job that didn't get done came seeking one and all.

There's a job to do. It's not going away. It can be done now on the "cheap" or done later at much greater cost, waste, effort and risk. We can be shy now or be brave later, but the need to be brave never ever goes away or gets cheaper only more expensive.

Today, if we're strategically smart ... there are two ways to get the job done. We can do it directly from the outside, or we can get it done by surrogates on the inside. Russian oligarchs are the personally motivated surrogate of choice.

Russian oligarchs are having their foreign assets frozen. Oligarchs don't make money (or much money) domestically, they make money through international trade and investment - that's fucked for now.

The oligarchs in Russia are at the top of the power pyramid and Putin is in practical terms their puppet. While everything is peaceful, Putin keeps the plebes in-line, and the oligarchs get to blissfully make money and do their thing. Somehow, someway, Putin has convinced them that he can have some fun on the cheap and under estimated the shit show that he's walked into. He's been allowed or has snuck off the reservation. The oligarchs have their own self-interest first and foremost. They do not have the power to defeat NATO. They do have the resources to decapitate Putin, put in a new puppet, and return order within Russia. They have the disinformation resources to turn a withdrawal from Ukraine into a national victory especially while body bags are minimal and defeats at the skirmish through battle level can be kept out of the national news. And, in any case, they don't really care about the national mood, along as their wealth can be reclaimed. Easily achieved at these early stages by full withdrawal, the obligatory diplomatic statements of regret blah, blah, blah, suitable sacrificial offerings (Putin and Lavrov), making financial submissions to Ukraine to clean up the mess (pennies on the dollar). It would permit assets to free up much sooner than never, the Rubel has the chance to recover its losses, and the foreign trade and investment that the oligarchs depend on can be restored.

By all accounts, Ukraine's military have technologically superior equipment in the hands of competent operators. What they lack in numbers, they are making up for in terms of superior execution in isolated sorties. It may not be enough to stop the Russian onslaught, but it's enough to draw blood, and delay or stall an advance, then operate forceful resistance under occupation. Note, Russian tanks have not been pushed to the front line yet ... not until the threat of US anti-tank Javelins have been nullified. Ukraine air force have been achieving success in one-on-one engagements. All males 18 to 60 are being denied exit from country and are being required to mobilize. It's going to get bloody and the outcome is not yet conclusive.

It is in the best interests of the Russian oligarchs to put their own interest first. There are two ways to win a conflict: (1) deliver the winning blow, or (2) let the opponent defeat itself. We could do the first, but it will take time for various legislative bodies to grant offensive authority, or a misstep by Putin where he stupidly does something that triggers an Article 5 response. The latter is our most viable immediate option and Russian oligarchs are the latent snake in the grass.
 
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CroJack

Key Player
Screenshot at 2022-02-27 15-04-28.png
We all know Putin is a lunatic, and despite the fact he is a lunatic who has 50000+ nukes (over fifty thousands nukes) we are poking him in the eye. Let's be pragmatic for a moment, and ask ourselves: Is a promise given to Ukraine about the NATO membership worth a nuclear war? Are we sure Putin is a new Nikita who won't pull the trigger? For God sake, let's start listening to our enemies, especially to the second-strongest nuclear power in the world. Let's compromise. We have just lost a war to a bunch of goat herders using rifles from the Korean War, China is flexing muscles in the Pacific, our nations are physically, mentally and financially on the brink of the collapse after two difficult Covid years....and the last thing we need now is a (nuclear) war with Russia.
 

Yankee_Jack

Key Player
Putin is backed into a corner of his own making. He pushes the "button", Russia as he knows it would cease to exist as would he. Russian oligarchs would cease to exist. There are sane people within power in Russia who are going to viciously protect their own best interest. Nothing motivates such people more than their own self-preservation. It is not NATO that Putin should fear but is own internal power pyramid. The crazier he acts and talks ... since talk is cheap for a coward ... the greater his risk of the internal power pyramid taking him out. And if Putin talks nukes and the power pyramid doesn't act then clearly it's just talk as I'm sure they would be fully briefed.

We need to be patient and let natural internal forces play out.

At this point ... is it reasonable to believe that NATO ... forget NATO ... the US doesn't have every missile silo, transporter, submarine, surface vessel with nuclear capability located, tracked, and targeted. Putin must certainly be aware of this probability. He knows the limit of what he can do.
 

CroJack

Key Player
Compromise, appeasement ... pick your evasive verb of choice ... it all points the same way: delaying a job to tomorrow.
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Compromise meaning:

- an agreement or settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.
- settling a dispute by mutual concession

Appease
meaning:

- pacify or placate (someone) by acceding to their demands

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The oligarchs in Russia are at the top of the power pyramid and Putin is in practical terms their puppet.
No, mate, that's far from the truth. Putin is in change in Russia. Putin gets his cut, but he also makes sure the oligarchs contribute to the development of Russia. If not, then they end up in jail accused for fraud, tax evasion, money laundering...you name it. Putin's political strength is based on a broad popularity in Russia, and he has gained a huge part of this popularity by cracking down on the oligarchs.

"Mr Yeltsin was ‘intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich’ so long as they did his bidding and suitably recompensed him and his cronies in the process. When Vladimir Putin took over from Yeltsin he was more than happy to continue the arrangement just so long as he and his own cronies benefited in kind.

It was a straightforward deal. The oligarchs could make as much money as they wanted but they must not cross the Kremlin. And Mr Putin hasn’t been exactly timid in dealing with those oligarchs who have other ideas. Some have languished for years in prison in Russia, some have come to an early death in leafy Surrey.

Seen in that light, the oligarchs aren’t oligarchs at all. Rather, they are part of a complex protection racket. If oligarchy means rule by the few, they are not the few. They are just the beneficiaries – so long as they are also good boys."


 

CroJack

Key Player
"We're just one misunderstanding, one mistake, or one fanatic politician away from a nuclear conflict"

"About 2 billion people would die just from starvation after a small nuclear war between India and Pakistan."

Nowdays, the politicians don't understand the dangers of these nuclear wars."

 
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Yankee_Jack

Key Player
I don't see a compromise possible when one country unilaterally and without provocation invades, occupies, delivers death and destruction and suppresses a people, destroys a democracy, of a peaceful sovereign state.

What's to compromise. The oppression is either removed and reversed or its fight to the death, anything else is capitulation.
 

CroJack

Key Player
Good evening, how are you tonight?

NuclearClown.jpeg
Some observations:

1. Both sides have decided that peace needs more war. NATO is sending military airplanes, weapon and mercenaries to Ukraine. Putin has hired assassins from Chechnya. Russian economy is on its knees, and Putin is going to blame the West for everything. He'll get the vast majority of Russians on his side by brainwashing them through the state-owned media. This can't go wrong, can it?
2. Allegedly, Putin has sent his family to a high-tech underground city/nuclear shelter in Siberia.
3. Schools in Germany are telling their pupils that there is high possibility of a nuclear WWIII. I am not kidding.
4. Putin's fears are realized in response to his actions - German led united militarized Europe attacking heart of USSR. Germany has decided to send weapon to Ukraine and to invest €100b in modernisation of its military, and this is just the beginning.
5. Putin will not allow himself to lose face to a former TV comedian who has turned into an international hero. The humiliation would be too much for a man who postures himself as an alpha male. He is just going to press the nuclear button.
6. The politicians in the West have a really hard decision to make: either a) don't allow Ukraine join NATO or b) nuclear WWIII.
7. What’s happening right now is a lot of political egos running wild. I am not an optimist but I hope they realise that there won't be any winners in a nuclear war and that deescalation is a priority right now. I want to see more pragmatism from our politicians. If Putin needs to be appeased in order to calm the fuck down, then that’s what needs to happen for the initial time frame. He is 70, for fuck sake, and he won't be around for too long. In the meantime we have to make sure his successor is not same or even worse.
8. Remember, the USSR was not defeated in the war. It was defeated by giving Russians a smell of duty free shops, Coca Cola, Lewis jeans, rock music...We have to be more clever when dealing with Russia, because Russia is a huge country where there is a good chance that there is a huge number of lunatics who would gladly die for Putin.
 
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Yankee_Jack

Key Player
Russia is a huge land mass, the vast amount of which is totally empty. I’ve flown over Siberia at night. There’s nothing down there for as far as the eye can see … not a light, not a flicker of a fire, nothing but blackness. Even in the remotest parts of the US there is a light somewhere, every now and again.

Other than that Russia is a small country where the people are proud but pragmatic, suffering under a person (I would not call him a leader) harboring a delusion of grandeur that disappeared with the murder of the czarist family. The people deserve better. But appeasing this asshole resolves nothing. Just as it resolved nothing in the late 30s. After Ukraine will come Belarus then Poland.
 

ivoralljack

Grizzled Veteran
Staff member
I see that Narendra Modi, the Indian Prime Minister, has refused to denounce his 'friend' Vladimir Putin over his invasion of Ukraine and abstained in the recent vote to censure the Russians.

Time, I think, to ban ALL aid to India and bring back all those call centre jobs to the UK. If that happened, at least I'll at last be able to properly understand what is being said to me!! :rolleyes:
 

CroJack

Key Player
Putin doesn't want to rebuild either USSR or the Russian Empire. That's simply not true. He's said many times "Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain." What he really wants is a Great Russia with all Russians in Russia. In the early 90-ties by Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic used to say "Where there is one Serb, that's Serbia." when he started the brutal war against other Yugoslavia republics, and that's exactly what Putin is doing now in Ukraine. And just like Milosevic, who didn't want parts of Croatia where Croats were majority, Putin doesn't want western Ukraine. He wants exactly what he says and what he does: for geopolitical reasons he wants Ukraine to be neutral and demilitarized, and for the Great Russia reasons he wants Crimea and Donbas.

But why is Putin doing all of this?

In his 2005 annual state of the nation address to parliament and the country’s top political leaders, Putin said the Soviet collapse also was a tragedy for Russians.

“First and foremost it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” Putin said. “As for the Russian people, it became a genuine tragedy. Tens of millions of our fellow citizens and countrymen found themselves beyond the fringes of Russian territory.

Some of these "milions of his fellow citizens" were left in Ukraine. So, when he uses strong words like "genuine tragedy" and "the greatest geopolitical strategy of the century", then we have to understand that all of this means a lot to him, and that he will do anything it takes to correct this "genuine tragedy" and bring back all these "milions of his fellow citizens beyond the fringes od Russian territory" back to Russia.
 

ivoralljack

Grizzled Veteran
Staff member
He's said many times
The trouble is what Putin says and what Putin does are usually two very different things. The man is quite obviously deranged and is a compulsive liar - as well as being a butcher and a proven war criminal. It makes no difference that his victims are innocent women and children; to him they are merely cannon fodder in his pursuit of his ambitions. The man is sub-human and doesn't deserve to inhabit this earth with decent human beings. Let's hope that some caring and decent Russians put an end to him, so we can all thrive in peace and prosperity in our respective countries.
 

ivoralljack

Grizzled Veteran
Staff member
I can't believe these idiot Russians! Are they a sub-species or what? The Russian Football Union disagreed with a FIFA ruling to ban their teams from international competition and have appealed to the Court of Arbitration for Sport in a bid to get the ban overturned. Now listen to their argument and have yourself a good belly laugh - or weep with disbelief. The Russians claimed: "We believe Fifa and Eufa did not have a LEGAL basis when deciding on the removal of Russian teams."

Are those morons having a laugh????????????? LEGAL????!!! What the fuck was LEGAL about them invading a sovereign state, bombing shooting and destroying everything in their path and committing wholesale slaughter and massacre of innocent civilians including women and children??? Is THAT legal, you lying, murderous, barbaric apes? Never was there a truer saying than; you can't educate pork. Apologies to pigs everywhere.

Get it through your THICK skulls. The decent, civilised world wants nothing to do with you!!
 
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