I wonder what their actual minutes are? Piroe does have one asset over Cullen and that's his ability to score an individual goal. Cullen, being more of a poacher, does need service or action in the box to get his strike off.
Blades Away
- Thread starter Yankee_Jack
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Yankee_Jack
Key Player
Piroe has played the most minutes, sub’d the least
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
In the last 8 games: Piroe 707 minutes (7x90 + 77), 6 goals, 118 minutes / goal. Cullen 462 minutes, 5 goals, 92 minutes per goal. This included an 8 minute appearance in the first match of the series when he scored as a sub.
Cullen is the most efficient forward. If he had played the same minutes as Piroe he would have likely scored 7 to 8 goals. Over a season this would likely amount to an additional 6 to 11 goals depending whether we take the current 7 or 8 goal ratio, and note this would be based on Cullen’s shorter minutes per 8 games played propagated forward.
every time we sub off Cullen we lose scoring efficiency. Since Whitaker is more of a #10 than a #9, taking off Piroe often playing the deeper role would be the smarter thing to do just by the numbers and natural player roles. This typifies the problem with Martin …he tends to make changes and deploys players impacted by a bias that often goes against the grain of both the data and common sense.
another example is the Benda v Fisher situation. Benda didn’t suddenly become the technically better keeper. Martin’s inherent bias had to be overcome by Fisher’s persistent vulnerability in matches to the point where a blind man could see that something had to change. In this context, not only is Benda technically better, he makes better decisions.
A similar analysis can be had with Fulton although it’s a bit more complex and foggy. However, He has not suddenly become a better player, or a harder working player, or a better trainer …. He’s a seasoned pro, he is what he is. Videos of Fulton under Cooper would illustrate his value.
Cullen is the most efficient forward. If he had played the same minutes as Piroe he would have likely scored 7 to 8 goals. Over a season this would likely amount to an additional 6 to 11 goals depending whether we take the current 7 or 8 goal ratio, and note this would be based on Cullen’s shorter minutes per 8 games played propagated forward.
every time we sub off Cullen we lose scoring efficiency. Since Whitaker is more of a #10 than a #9, taking off Piroe often playing the deeper role would be the smarter thing to do just by the numbers and natural player roles. This typifies the problem with Martin …he tends to make changes and deploys players impacted by a bias that often goes against the grain of both the data and common sense.
another example is the Benda v Fisher situation. Benda didn’t suddenly become the technically better keeper. Martin’s inherent bias had to be overcome by Fisher’s persistent vulnerability in matches to the point where a blind man could see that something had to change. In this context, not only is Benda technically better, he makes better decisions.
A similar analysis can be had with Fulton although it’s a bit more complex and foggy. However, He has not suddenly become a better player, or a harder working player, or a better trainer …. He’s a seasoned pro, he is what he is. Videos of Fulton under Cooper would illustrate his value.
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That, as I've often posted before, is what the likes of Curt, Trunds, Leon and KOL have been saying for yonks also, I believe, backed by Cameron Toshack who brought Liam through in the Unders. So, I have to ask, why does Martin, who was a defender, take a different view to Curt and Trunds who were very successful strikers and would have a far better idea of what constitutes a good striker? Okay, I get that the overall balance of the side is a major consideration in team selection BUT, arguably, a team's ability to score is of paramount importance. I'm not saying that Piroe should be dropped because he possesses attributes that Liam doesn't. However, you have to have damned good reasons to not use your most natural striker, which Liam is, and I cannot see what those reasons are.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
Piroe's attributes: exactly what are these that make him superior to Cullen.
Piroe is over 6ft tall, but challenges meekly and wins few headed challenges against CBs. Cullen is 5'8 but is as effective or no less ineffective depending on your view point.
Piroe's first touch leaves a lot to be desired. He's not the sort of #9 you can knock a ball into and have him either hold it or lay it off one touch ... translated, he doesn't offer us a long ball out. Speed wise: I don't have numbers, but I don't perceive him as having a turn of speed. He's not going to threaten CBs for speed and he's not going to push the ball past a defender and skin him. He's not displayed a propensity to tackle well. He's not displayed a propensity to chase back and get goal side when playing in the deeper role as opposed to #9 - unlike say an Oli Cooper.
It's not that Piroe is that bad, he's just trending to plain average and unremarkable. If we were to line up Piroe against: Danny Graham, Luke Moore, Borini, Pintado, Scotland ... who would you pick? For me, he doesn't stand out from that crowd, and I avoided the clearly losing comparisons to Michu and Bony. Put another way, if he's not scoring, then what's he doing out there that makes the difference.
Martin employs a play it out from the back approach ... but frankly, we don't have an alternative. We can't knock the ball up to Piroe and expect him to do a job ... the ball just comes straight back at us.
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CroJack
Key Player
@Yankee_Jack It's impossible to say what would have happened had Cullen played every match from the start of the season and how many goals he would have scored. Cullen and Piroe's goal-scoring ratio heavily depends on the (lack of) creativity behind them. I really don't understand this Cullen v Piroe debate. Both of them have to play together with Whittaker and Cooper. Cullen up front, Whittaker as 10 behind him, Piroe on the right and Cooper on the left of Whittaker.
Piroe missed many chances this season, but he's played well lately and he started creating chances for others, which is excellent.
We are losing games because we leak goals like a sieve. Nothing to do with Piroe. Piroe scored two against Birmingham but we conceded four. The problem is our manager, the game managment and the quality of our defenders.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
@CroJack ... I agree with you that it is impossible to predict what would have happened with respect to Cullen's game time. This is why I used the qualifier "likely". I was making a projection based on 23% or so of the season. All other things being equal it's a reasonable projection to illustrate difference. A 1 or 2 goal difference over 8 games does not seem critical, but scale over a season and difference becomes recognizable.
The Cullen v Piroe debate is on the table because Martin has chosen to utilize the players in an either or situation up until 7 games ago, and now has chosen to utilize Cullen/Whitaker in an either or situation in the last two games, with Piroe being the constant. @ivoralljack raised the question of what are the differentiating factors - and I also agree that frankly take away the goals and Piroe's offering is slim IMO. If we're discussing / debating what would be optimal then I agree with your assessment. However, Martin's choices are setting up the debate and Martin's choice has been Piroe is constant and others are options around him. The arguments are countering Martin's "logic" and choices. Piroe is not a franchise player I would build a team around, and we certainly have not attempted to do that, primarily I would argue because his strengths are not crystal clear.
An equally viable alternative would be: Cullen, with Cooper, Whitaker and Cundle/Fulton behind ... this following the logic that Piroe doesn't have the attributes to play wide-ish, not that Cundle really does either but at least he's more mobile and energetic, and Fulton is all around better in that role.
@CroJack is absolutely correct on the primary reason we lose games. We come under the cosh defensively because too often we have players becoming anonymous on the field so playing short handed or making unforced errors and one way or another we engineer ourselves into compromising situations.
United's first goal came about because Manning failed in a rash challenge in their half that allowed them to break quickly down that flank. Manning plays the ball into touch or contains instead of committing and all is well. United's third goal: had Naughton not bottled a challenge on the edge of the box that allowed a player to play through but instead put at least a toe into the ball all is well - we don't get to the point of Fisher's faux pas. United's second ... they finished well but nobody was ready for the second ball, nobody is thinking.
Martin is not ruthless enough when it comes to players becoming anonymous.
The Cullen v Piroe debate is on the table because Martin has chosen to utilize the players in an either or situation up until 7 games ago, and now has chosen to utilize Cullen/Whitaker in an either or situation in the last two games, with Piroe being the constant. @ivoralljack raised the question of what are the differentiating factors - and I also agree that frankly take away the goals and Piroe's offering is slim IMO. If we're discussing / debating what would be optimal then I agree with your assessment. However, Martin's choices are setting up the debate and Martin's choice has been Piroe is constant and others are options around him. The arguments are countering Martin's "logic" and choices. Piroe is not a franchise player I would build a team around, and we certainly have not attempted to do that, primarily I would argue because his strengths are not crystal clear.
An equally viable alternative would be: Cullen, with Cooper, Whitaker and Cundle/Fulton behind ... this following the logic that Piroe doesn't have the attributes to play wide-ish, not that Cundle really does either but at least he's more mobile and energetic, and Fulton is all around better in that role.
@CroJack is absolutely correct on the primary reason we lose games. We come under the cosh defensively because too often we have players becoming anonymous on the field so playing short handed or making unforced errors and one way or another we engineer ourselves into compromising situations.
United's first goal came about because Manning failed in a rash challenge in their half that allowed them to break quickly down that flank. Manning plays the ball into touch or contains instead of committing and all is well. United's third goal: had Naughton not bottled a challenge on the edge of the box that allowed a player to play through but instead put at least a toe into the ball all is well - we don't get to the point of Fisher's faux pas. United's second ... they finished well but nobody was ready for the second ball, nobody is thinking.
Martin is not ruthless enough when it comes to players becoming anonymous.
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