What's that smell????

[ivoralljack]

I think they are full of shit.

1. Are we in a difficult financial situation? I don't buy it. They say we still pay installments for our flops, but they say nothing about installments for Siggy, Cork, Llorente etc.

2. If we were in a difficult financial situation then why the man who has been in charge has not been sacked yet?

3. They say they decided on the last day of the transfer window that Ryan Woods was not the right player for us? Really?

4. Who is lying, the Yanks or Dineen who says we didn't have £6m to buy Woods?

5. They say what they are doing now is a long term project. Yeah, right. And what do they want to achieve? Do they want us back up in the Premier League? I doubt it. This year is the year we should be doing everything to achieve promotion. Longer we wait more difficult it becomes. Experts say the first year parachute payment is worth 5 points. Of course if you use it. Do you really think the Yanks won't sell Celina, Roberts, McBurnie, Rodon...next year? I bet they'll also get rid of all high earners like Naughton, Olsson, Van der Hoorn, Bony, Fer and Carroll. And then we'll start from scratch.

I think the Yanks don't want us back in the Premier League. I think they've figured out that the Championship can be more profitable than the Premier League. No need to invest, less work, less risk and the profit can be huge. In this crazy world young Championship players can be sold for £20 -£30m. You just have to have a good Academy, scouting department and manager who can keep you afloat in the Championship...and who can keep fans happy by playing some good football.

Premier League is a huge risk for a small club like Swansea. You need huge investments just to stay in the league. Invest in three or four £20m flops and you are on the brink of bankruptcy. As a Premier League club you get huge TV money, but you have to pay huge wages as well. Six years ago Laudrup said that if you wanted to compete with the top Premier League clubs you needed £300m - £400m investments. Today it's more than £1 b. Just look at West Ham. They invested £100m this summer, they have a top manager and after 4 games they are rock bottom.

All questions that the so-called 'journalist' from the WM should have asked but didn't! Was he afraid to? Was he too thick to recognise that these sort of questions should have been asked? He was fobbed off and accepted it like a lamb, perhaps just grateful for his quiet break in the USA.

 

[Borini]

Here is another aroma ... A world cup final centre half at bargain basement price.

http://www.nufcblog.com/2018/09/04/bargain-buy-starting-to-play-starring-role-for-newcastle/

Idiots.

 

[Ladygargar]

Be interesting to see where the money for the purchase of Rooney came from........therein lies a tale of two teams; I’m not sure how they square that one away to be honest.....or if they were asked the question “why buy a horribly expensive end of career legend for one club and go bargain basement shopping for the other”?

Don’t shit where you eat maybe?

 

[Yankee_Jack]

In the USA, they can sell sponsorship against Rooney for the US market. He's basically a walking bill board.

 

[CroJack]

They need to be in the Premier League when they do sell the team, which they will. They can say they are long-term but they aren't.

If they can make £30m a year profit in the Championship then they can easily sell the club to some rich Chinese, Russian or Arab millionaire/billionaire.

Here is an interesting article written by New York Times about clubs who make dirty profit on young, hungry players.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/30/sports/transfers-lithuania-prospects.html

 

[MIjacks]

If they can make £30m a year profit in the Championship

Where do you get that they can make that kind of money? Players from the championship don't sell for what players in the epl do, thus the price of our sales. As for the article while interesting/sad we don't get that luxury as while we can invest in cheaper players we don't sign the players like the ones in the article for nothing. Cheapest we get are more like the free players from other clubs who we are going to have to compete with wage wise. Here's a breakdown of the riches of the championship. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...-financial-gap-premier-league-annual-accounts Now if you could get a cheap young side in the epl that's when you could really make some money.

 

[CroJack]

Where do you get that they can make that kind of money? Players from the championship don't sell for what players in the epl do, thus the price of our sales

This summer:

Middlesbrough sold five players for €47,8 m. Traore, Gibson, Bamford, Fabio and Barragan.

Bristol sold five players for €29,5 m. Reid, Flint, Bryan, Magnusson and Djuric.

Norwich sold three players for €37,6 m. Maddison, Murphy and Watkins.

Ipswich and Sheffield United sold players for approx. €12 m each, Derby for €14,5 m, Millwall and Brentford for approx. €8 m each.

Next year I can imagine the Yanks sell McBurnie and Celina to Premier League clubs for £30 m. Add to these two Rodon and Roberts...that could be £40 m.
Then they can tell Potter to fill the gaps with new academy players and cheap youngsters from other clubs.

If we don't get promoted Van der Hoorn, Olsson, Naughton, Carroll and Fer will be sold. We simply won't be able to pay their wages anymore. Second year parachute payments are significantly lower than this year. The Yanks will probably get rid of Bony, Narsingh, Dyer and Routledge in January.

 

[ivoralljack]

Next year I can imagine the Yanks sell McBurnie and Celina to Premier League clubs for £30 m. Add to these two Rodon and Roberts...that could be £40 m.
Then they can tell Potter to fill the gaps with new academy players and cheap youngsters from other clubs.

If that happens, I think that Potter will almost cerainly tell them to stick the job up their respective arses. We have to remember that this is a young, talented and ambitious manager who wants to make his own way in the game. He probably accepts that he has to develop a new team from scratch right now by finding and coaching youngsters to play his style of football. But if he does that and enjoys success only to see them sold from under him and told to start again, I'm pretty certain that he'll look to move to a club with greater ambition than ours. And he won't be short of offers either!!

 

[Jackflash]

If that happens, I think that Potter will almost cerainly tell them to stick the job up their respective arses. We have to remember that this is a young, talented and ambitious manager who wants to make his own way in the game. He probably accepts that he has to develop a new team from scratch right now by finding and coaching youngsters to play his style of football. But if he does that and enjoys success only to see them sold from under him and told to start again, I'm pretty certain that he'll look to move to a club with greater ambition than ours. And he won't be short of offers either!!

Just wondering how many of Jenkins' promises to him have been broken already? One for sure is that he doesn't have the final say on a player coming in (Woods) forget the rubbish that we couldn't afford him, Laurel & Hardy had already decided he wouldn't fit into the team.

 

[MIjacks]

CroJack
Yes I get you can sell all those players like the other teams did but they have to be replaced. So even if you go the cheap route you're looking 10 million to buy them. Based off of the cheap younger players we bought this season. If you are lucky and have the youth players like Roberts and Rodon they are years of investment and you don't have players of their caliber coming through your system every year.
Even from just a theoretical perspective let's say you average 10 million a player. You need to sell 4 or 5 of your best players yearly to make the money you're talking about while replacing them. How many years can you keep that up and stay at the championship level to make the profits you're taking about.
Make epl level and you can sell one or two of those players for the price of all the others combined and now that's all you have to replace. Plus you have all the extra income coming in. Yes you will have to pay some more in wages but you really don't think Swansea couldn't have gotten Celina for the same price and used him last year? Or let's say they go up next year and hang on to him. Price is worth at least 2x prob more if he's able to show what he's shown in the championship in the epl.

 

[Behindthegoal]

Hasn't that always been the way we did things here, up till the departure of Martinez (as manager)?
When we were in the top flight in the 80s our most expensive player was Colin Irwin at about £350k. After the fall we gleaned our signings from the lower leagues, and non league clubs. If they were good enough they were sold on for a profit. A feeder club is what we were.
It wasn't until the early Liberty days that we broke the bank to sign Ashley Williams for £400k!
It's not just that the Premier League ruined Swansea City Football Club, it has ruined football full stop!
Let's just stay where we are for a bit and enjoy the games until all the rich European clubs have formed their own Super League and British football can return to normal

 

[Behindthegoal]

Just remind me, what percentage of our income went in wages in the Prem?

 

[Yankee_Jack]

Over 80%

 

[Behindthegoal]

So if we say turnover is £120m that leaves £24m to run the business, satisfy the shareholders and buy new players. There are also the, admittedly ignored, strictures of FFP. If you want to buy new players you must have a Sheikh or sell your stars at a profit.
Just back of envelope figures.

 

[CroJack]

Yes I get you can sell all those players like the other teams did but they have to be replaced. So even if you go the cheap route you're looking 10 million to buy them. Based off of the cheap younger players we bought this season.

We payed £6m for Celina, Asoro, McKay, John, Dhanda and Govea. That's nothing.

If you are lucky and have the youth players like Roberts and Rodon they are years of investment and you don't have players of their caliber coming through your system every year.

I disagree. We have many players like Roberts and Rodon.

James, Byers, Maric, Baker-Richardson, Harries, Reid...Don't forget McBurnie whom we have developed through our academy.
"Years of development" you mention is mostly 2-3 years. And all these players are on so called development contracts. They are very cheap comparing to profit you can earn by selling only one or two of them every year.

Even from just a theoretical perspective let's say you average 10 million a player. You need to sell 4 or 5 of your best players yearly to make the money you're talking about while replacing them.

If you average £10m a player then you need to sell 3 of them yearly to make profit of £30m if you replace them with academy players. Remember that £10m is nothing for Premier League clubs when they buy a young, talented player with re-sell value.

Make epl level and you can sell one or two of those players for the price of all the others combined and now that's all you have to replace.

This is how much the Premier League clubs have made from transfers this summer:



They are £1 billion in red. Being in red on transfers is not a big deal for the big clubs. Their revenue is not only based on TV money. TV money is 30% of their revenue. But for small clubs like Swansea - with miserable commercial, sponsorship and gate income - TV money is 80% of their revenue. For them, transfer window is make-or-break time. If they sell their best players to make profit, they get relegated. If they buy a couple of expensive flops, they are in deep trouble. That's exactly what has happened to Swansea.

Managers of the small clubs in the Premier League are afraid of playing young, talented academy players. They have no time to experiment. It's too risky. Every game is a must win game. They want experience. That's why we had Routledge and not James in the starting XI last season.

And this is how much the Championship clubs have made:



I dare to say that in the Championship - with a good manager, style of play, and a squad full of young, talented players - you can comfortably be a mid-table club and continuously sell players for profit.

 

[Behindthegoal]

Thanks Crojack, that's the point I was trying to make

 

[MIjacks]

We payed £6m for Celina, Asoro, McKay, John, Dhanda and Govea. That's nothing.
I disagree. We have many players like Roberts and Rodon.

James, Byers, Maric, Baker-Richardson, Harries, Reid...Don't forget McBurnie whom we have developed through our academy.
"Years of development" you mention is mostly 2-3 years. And all these players are on so called development contracts. They are very cheap comparing to profit you can earn by selling only one or two of them every year.

6 million is a lot of money if you're a championship team with no parachute payments.

Also yes years of development how many years have Roberts and Rodon been in our academy. Even 3 years for a player like oli is a long time if you're selling off 3 players to be replaced by academy players every year.

If you average £10m a player then you need to sell 3 of them yearly to make profit of £30m if you replace them with academy players. Remember that £10m is nothing for Premier League clubs when they buy a young, talented player with re-sell value.

K let's say that works out and you can make that. After this year you sell Celina, Oli, and Rodon for 30 million. Replace them with academy. Then the next year we'll continue selling 3 more and replacing them with academy how long are we a mid table championship team. This team without the the 3 I mentioned aren't a mid table championship team. Also we have been going crazy after this transfer window, how well is it going to go over when you start selling academy kids and not spending the money.

This is how much the Premier League clubs have made from transfers this summer:

View attachment 231

They are £1 billion in red. Being in red on transfers is not a big deal for the big clubs. Their revenue is not only based on TV money. TV money is 30% of their revenue. But for small clubs like Swansea - with miserable commercial, sponsorship and gate income - TV money is 80% of their revenue. For them, transfer window is make-or-break time. If they sell their best players to make profit, they get relegated. If they buy a couple of expensive flops, they are in deep trouble. That's exactly what has happened to Swansea.

Managers of the small clubs in the Premier League are afraid of playing young, talented academy players. They have no time to experiment. It's too risky. Every game is a must win game. They want experience. That's why we had Routledge and not James in the starting XI last season.

This chart clearly shows clubs that are way out of our league spending wise. Also that's what epl money let's you so spend more money than you sell.
Routledge is exactly the point.That's where all the mistakes were made. We did whatever we thought we had to to stay in the Premier League and that's where we lost all our money. If we had a philosophy of playing younger players and back a manager like Potter even if they got relegated we'd be in way better shape. The philosophy should be play young guys get to the PL and keep playing young guys. If we get relegated so be it we are in great shape to bounce back.

And this is how much the Championship clubs have made:

View attachment 232

I dare to say that in the Championship - with a good manager, style of play, and a squad full of young, talented players - you can comfortably be a mid-table club and continuously sell players for profit.

That's because that's what they have to do because of their budget they aren't making a ton of cash otherwise owners would be lining up to stay in the championship. Where do you think all the money came from for the new training facilities and all the upgrades. That's Premier League money. A team in the championship isn't buying those luxuries. Finally teams values dive once they have been relegated so to say the owners want to stay in the championship is a farce. They want to become pl and sell at the highest price. They can say long hall but that's 5 years for them not 20+. They will make way more overall getting back to the Premier League then just staying in the championship.

 

[Yankee_Jack]

When we arrived in the Prem under Rogers, we had one of the youngest squads. In contrast, at the time, Spurs had one of the oldest.

In the several years we were there things flipped around. We became one of the oldest, less dynamic squads that's because of the influx of sub-standard players and sub-standard coaches relative to the system that we had when we arrived and peaked under Laudrup - through this clamber to mediocrity, trying to buy cheap, and a fear to aspire to be the best of our sub-league, we were undone. Spurs went to "youth" and prospered.

 

[MIjacks]

Totally agree YankeeJack I hope that if we do get back to the Premier League we remember the lessons from the past few seasons. Hold onto what Potter seems to be building even if it means we get relegated from the PL again. Don't fire coaches just to get a bump, keep managers like Laudrup even if they're struggling. Keep playing young players and don't try and hold onto PL at any cost. Hopefully we realize it's not the end of the world to get relegated from the Premier League if we keep our principles we'll be in good shape to bounce back. Now hopefully Potter can begin the work back to where we were in the best of times.

 

[CroJack]

The philosophy should be play young guys get to the PL and keep playing young guys

That would be great, and I would love to share your optimism, but I still doubt we'll get to the PL this season - especially if Olie and a couple of our midfielders get injured. But fingers crossed.

And if we don't get promoted this season then it's going to be more and more difficult in years to come. All senior players will be gone by next summer. Our revenue will drop down next year, and after three years our revenue will be something like £30m if we are lucky.

...that's what they have to do because of their budget they aren't making a ton of cash otherwise owners would be lining up to stay in the championship.

But they aren't making a ton of cash in the Premier League either. My point is that it is easier to make profit in the Championship if you are a small club. Because of the lower quality of football you have luxury to develop young players. In the Premier League you don't have such luxury.

The only way to make money in the Premier League is to have a squad on low wages. I am talking here about small clubs like Swansea. But for how long you can do that? Your best players will ask you to raise their wages to £50.000 - £100.000 or they'll leave. And if you raise their wages then the wage bill will be so big that you won't make profit.

Where do you think all the money came from for the new training facilities and all the upgrades. That's Premier League money.

Yes, but remember when we got promoted we had a squad on low wages, and we sold Sinclair and Allen. That's why we were able to build the new training facilites. Since our wage bill has skyrocketed to 82 % of our revenue.

Premier League has changed since we got promoted. Transfer fees and wages are huge now. And both players and agents know that.

...to say the owners want to stay in the championship is a farce. They want to become pl and sell at the highest price.

I don't think so. If they wanted to go back up immediately they either wouldn't have sold almost all our senior players or they would have invested in quality replacements. That's how you get promoted. What we are doing right now is a long term project.

I think three of these clubs will be in the Premier League next season: Middlesbrough, Derby, Leeds, Aston Villa, Stoke, WBA, Sheffield United, Brentford and Nottingham Forrest. We simply don't have enough depth in our squad to be serious contenders.