Swansea v Millwall
- Thread starter Jackflash
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Yankee_Jack
Key Player
In this configuration, Cabango should be the CB in between Naughton and Williams. This is our best line-up. If we're playing Naughton as a sweeper in between two CBs then clearly the need for Downes is redundant. Replace him with Fulton alongside Grimes and Ntchem (who also tired midway through the 2nd half). Paterson can sit on the bench. Then we just need two strikers.
But however we go about it, or whoever, we play up top. Crosses, crosses, crosses and shots from anywhere are going to create opportunities.
But however we go about it, or whoever, we play up top. Crosses, crosses, crosses and shots from anywhere are going to create opportunities.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
Phone a friend. I'm sure he'd have an answer and a posse of players to make it work.
CroJack
Key Player
Disagree. Our best formation is 4 at the back. 4-3-3, 4-1-4-1, or 4-2-3-1.
Martin plays Steve Cooper's defensive formation and expects us to score goals? Forget it.
First of all, Christian O'Leary is right when he says we lack pace with Piroe, Paterson and Ntcham up front.
Second, with three at the back, two wing-backs, and two defensive pivots, that's seven players who are not going to score for us. And when you add Paterson and Ntcham who neither are prolific goalscorers then it's only Piroe left. We simply have to switch to the one of the above mentioned formations, and add more attacking minded players to our starting XI. Why not Obafemi, Piroe and Whittaker/Cullen up front?
Third, we don't play defensive football anymore, so why use a defensive set-up with three at the back? If we have all possession and don't allow opposition to create much, then we don't need to defend much.
Fourth, when you play possession football like Manchester City, then you not only need pace up front, but also at the back. Why? Almost all goals and chances we have conceded this season were goals and chances from counter-attacks when we made sloppy passes and gave the ball away. That's why we need quick players in our defence, the players who can track back and prevent counter-attacks. I am sorry to say this, but Cabango is too slow and clumsy to play this style of football. Though, he is perfect for Steve Cooper's defensive style.
Fifth, I can't accept Martin's excuse that our players lack fitness. If Manning, Ntcham and Paterson can't run for 90 minutes, then play Bidwell, Fulton, Whittaker and Cullen. The latter can play passing football as well.
SIxth, if we want to progress with this style of football our scouting department should be concentrating on signing players who have pace. For every position.This should be rule no. 1. And then look at technical ability, and physical stamina/endurance. Ideally, all of this, but pace should be priority. You can't run behind opposition defence if you don't have pace, you can't dribble past opposition defenders if you don't have pace, you can't do quick transitions if you don't have pace, you can't counter-attack if you don't have pace, and, finally, you can't track back if you don't have pace. I can't stress enough how much pace is important in modern football.
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Behindthegoal
Key Player
Agreed, CJ. Unfortunately pace is a sellers’ market. Isn’t that why so many 3rd tier and lower clubs survive by bypassing midfield and booting the ball to their man mountain of a centre forward?
CroJack
Key Player
Yes. But it can be done over two or three transfer windows. We only need to have a clear transfer policy that prioritize pace.
I think it's time to face the fact that Martin was not the right choice. We are now experiencing what his time at MK Dons experienced, possession football with no goals. Actually we were far more of a goal threat under Cooper, There were quite a few established managers at the time we employed him who were available.
He talks about his teams record breaking 56 pass goal, but admits people find it boring. His philosophy is "The more we have the ball the more we can control the game, it's a 90 minute game plan to try and dominate the ball." Agreed Russell, but all this has to be accompanied by goals, something that has never been your forte in your managerial career. We dominated the first half of the Millwall game but not even one shot on target. In the second half it took a free kick to test their keeper for the first time.
He talks about his teams record breaking 56 pass goal, but admits people find it boring. His philosophy is "The more we have the ball the more we can control the game, it's a 90 minute game plan to try and dominate the ball." Agreed Russell, but all this has to be accompanied by goals, something that has never been your forte in your managerial career. We dominated the first half of the Millwall game but not even one shot on target. In the second half it took a free kick to test their keeper for the first time.
CroJack
Key Player
It's too soon to make such a judgment. Had Paterson, Piroe and Walsh scored we would praise Martin now.
The goals will follow to quote @ivoralljack
.
Some tweaks are needed but it can be fixed.
But these are 'Ifs' CJ not goals.
Prior to the Millwall game he spoke to a London reporter. Same old spiel , he was confident his method would deliver an impressive result, going on to say "We have more passes in the final third than anyone in the league, at MK Dons we had more touches in the box than anyone in the country apart from Norwich and Man C."
It seems its an obsession of his just to control the ball in the opposition box. no mention of goals other of course than his 56 pass goal at MKD.
He'll get my support when we start getting constructive results.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
There's fit and then fit for purpose. That Paterson and Manning were both running on empty and cramping is not a good sign for either their fitness or athletic ability. Grimes is a 90 minute player and he's gone through the same routine as Manning. Paterson arrived late, but he's a professional (supposedly) what the hell was he doing after being released by his previous club. He should have arrived ready to rock and roll if for no other reason than to avoid becoming a surplus to requirements player all over again. I'm not a Paterson fan - don't see his utility - especially when there's Whittaker more than capable of doing the same job better with goals in his boots.
We need people on the field that can deliver for 90. Dead wood - technically or physically - is not acceptable in a starting XI. If a player needs conditioning games play him in the U23. We're not short of players at the moment. Bidwell and Fulton are more than capable of starting and finishing a game. 90 minute players give the manager options in the second half to make tactical substitutions because the game requires it, not dead wood substitutions because players have lost their legs.
Piroe is the only player who can justify being knackered at some point in the second half, because in his role there's no upper limit to the amount of running and work he has to do and not excuse in not doing it.
Why put your assist leader from last season, Bidwell, on the bench .... was he that knackered from Sat that he needed a game's rest when last season he was ever present.
Bidwell are Laird couldn't be two more different players in the attacking third. Bidwell is the overlapper type. Laird is the tricky winger type. But both give us options to get around behind and deliver crosses.
We need people on the field that can deliver for 90. Dead wood - technically or physically - is not acceptable in a starting XI. If a player needs conditioning games play him in the U23. We're not short of players at the moment. Bidwell and Fulton are more than capable of starting and finishing a game. 90 minute players give the manager options in the second half to make tactical substitutions because the game requires it, not dead wood substitutions because players have lost their legs.
Piroe is the only player who can justify being knackered at some point in the second half, because in his role there's no upper limit to the amount of running and work he has to do and not excuse in not doing it.
Why put your assist leader from last season, Bidwell, on the bench .... was he that knackered from Sat that he needed a game's rest when last season he was ever present.
Bidwell are Laird couldn't be two more different players in the attacking third. Bidwell is the overlapper type. Laird is the tricky winger type. But both give us options to get around behind and deliver crosses.
Have faith, people. Our passing football is coming along just fine as will the goals sooner rather than later. RM is absolutely right when he says that fitness levels are not where they should be to play this type of football. As we get fitter, more chances will be created. And let's not forget that we are still learning to properly implement what Martin wants.
With a bit of luck we could have scored at least a couple last night and when the first one goes in, the game changes. If the oppo want anything from the game then they've got to open up and that creates much more space for us to punish them.
This was never going to be an overnight thing. We knew it would take time. But our investment in that time undoubtedly will pay dividends over the medium/long haul. Short term? Well everyone is still learning and getting closer to the required fitness levels. Patience is required whilst the squad get used to what is required of them.
Perhaps we are short of one or two players who could provide a shortcut but Martin has to experiment with what he's got for now. Personally, I would take a punt on free agent Jack Wilshire. He has proven quality at a level above us and could be that creative influence we are screaming out for in midfield. We are not a million miles away!!
Like @CroJack I'd like to see a flexible trio up front involving Piroe, Obafemi and Cullen/Whitts. The non-starter could be brought on as a regular tactic when one of the other three either starts to tire or is having a poor game. Keeps everyone on their toes does that. I'm still optimistic and quite prepared to use this season as a learning curve to give us a strong launching pad for a serious tilt at promotion next season.
With a bit of luck we could have scored at least a couple last night and when the first one goes in, the game changes. If the oppo want anything from the game then they've got to open up and that creates much more space for us to punish them.
This was never going to be an overnight thing. We knew it would take time. But our investment in that time undoubtedly will pay dividends over the medium/long haul. Short term? Well everyone is still learning and getting closer to the required fitness levels. Patience is required whilst the squad get used to what is required of them.
Perhaps we are short of one or two players who could provide a shortcut but Martin has to experiment with what he's got for now. Personally, I would take a punt on free agent Jack Wilshire. He has proven quality at a level above us and could be that creative influence we are screaming out for in midfield. We are not a million miles away!!
Like @CroJack I'd like to see a flexible trio up front involving Piroe, Obafemi and Cullen/Whitts. The non-starter could be brought on as a regular tactic when one of the other three either starts to tire or is having a poor game. Keeps everyone on their toes does that. I'm still optimistic and quite prepared to use this season as a learning curve to give us a strong launching pad for a serious tilt at promotion next season.
Some stats from last night:
POSSESSION: 64-36 SHOTS: 12-10 OT: 4-4 CORNERS: 7-3 FOULS: 13-8 GOALS: Sod all!!
Easy to see from those basic stats where the problems are. With far less possession, Millwall had only 2 shots less than we did and equalled our on target shots. In the second half whilst Millwall got stronger, we visibly tired and could actually have lost the game. Thank you, Mr Hamer!
We need a genuine creator worthy of the name to consistently translate our possession into chances and goals. Being honest, I don't think we have one. Pablo could have done a job for us but he's gone. So I come back to Wilshire. Surely we could manufacture a deal that offers him a decent basic with hefty goal, assists and win bonuses? I drool at the thought of those cute little passes in and around the box that Cullen, for example, would gobble up. He's a born finisher but we're giving him nothing to finish.
We don't want him out wide; we don't want him too deep. We want him right in there where it hurts. Sure he'll miss a few, probably lots, but as he gains match sharpness and fitness, I know he'll deliver. Come to that, I'm also sure that both Piroe and Oba will really benefit from the quality service that Wilshire is capable of supplying. I reckon it's well worth a gamble.
PS: I'm well aware that JW might have fitness/injury issues. But we have others who can do the running and the dog work to win the ball and feed him. So he becomes a marked man. So what? If that happens it'll just free up space for others to operate in. Win, win for me.
POSSESSION: 64-36 SHOTS: 12-10 OT: 4-4 CORNERS: 7-3 FOULS: 13-8 GOALS: Sod all!!
Easy to see from those basic stats where the problems are. With far less possession, Millwall had only 2 shots less than we did and equalled our on target shots. In the second half whilst Millwall got stronger, we visibly tired and could actually have lost the game. Thank you, Mr Hamer!
We need a genuine creator worthy of the name to consistently translate our possession into chances and goals. Being honest, I don't think we have one. Pablo could have done a job for us but he's gone. So I come back to Wilshire. Surely we could manufacture a deal that offers him a decent basic with hefty goal, assists and win bonuses? I drool at the thought of those cute little passes in and around the box that Cullen, for example, would gobble up. He's a born finisher but we're giving him nothing to finish.
We don't want him out wide; we don't want him too deep. We want him right in there where it hurts. Sure he'll miss a few, probably lots, but as he gains match sharpness and fitness, I know he'll deliver. Come to that, I'm also sure that both Piroe and Oba will really benefit from the quality service that Wilshire is capable of supplying. I reckon it's well worth a gamble.
PS: I'm well aware that JW might have fitness/injury issues. But we have others who can do the running and the dog work to win the ball and feed him. So he becomes a marked man. So what? If that happens it'll just free up space for others to operate in. Win, win for me.
CroJack
Key Player
Passing football was 'if' as well a month ago when he was appointed, and he has delivered it in a record time. Honestly, I didn't expect us to become such a good passing side already in mid September. So, let's give him another month, or two if needed, to prove he can deliver goals and wins.
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Victoria Swan
Key Player
I can't believe you are already after Martin as our manager @Jackflash - it's taken you exactly seven games to adopt your well-worn manager moaning! As others have said, we need to be patient.
What is my objective in watching the Swans? To enjoy it and to get a sense that we are making progress toward another sustained spell in the Prem. I never got that with Cooper. Not only were most games boring and/or frustrating to watch but also I was convinced we would come right back down if we had been promoted with either of the last two playoff appearances. Under Martin, admittedly for only seven games so far, I am a) enjoying watching the games (although a little frustrated at not scoring) and b) feel like we are making progress to the kind of football that could promote us with long-term Prem prospects.
Take a break from moaning @Jackflash long enough to enjoy our free-flowing passing game and trust that soon enough there will be goals to go with it. Give the manager a chance, he's only been with us a couple of months!
What is my objective in watching the Swans? To enjoy it and to get a sense that we are making progress toward another sustained spell in the Prem. I never got that with Cooper. Not only were most games boring and/or frustrating to watch but also I was convinced we would come right back down if we had been promoted with either of the last two playoff appearances. Under Martin, admittedly for only seven games so far, I am a) enjoying watching the games (although a little frustrated at not scoring) and b) feel like we are making progress to the kind of football that could promote us with long-term Prem prospects.
Take a break from moaning @Jackflash long enough to enjoy our free-flowing passing game and trust that soon enough there will be goals to go with it. Give the manager a chance, he's only been with us a couple of months!
Just quoting his past experience with his previous clubs, constantly boasting about the amount of touches his football gets in the opposition half, but check out his goal tally with MKD and previous clubs, The last game 50 minutes before their keeper touched the ball, and that was from an on target free kick, His possession football stands for nothing if it doesn't present goals. We prevent the opposition from touching the ball, but it shouldn't include the opposition keeper,
There was a time when you were full of praise for Cooper and gave me a similar post then, I think I was proven right then, and until Martin stops producing 0-0 draws from 70% possession he won't have my full support. goals are points and thats what we're being starved of ATM.
Tend to agree with most of this. I'm more than happy with the way our game is progressing but we should start finding the net much more frequently than we have been. That said, Martin can't be blamed when his system produces clear chances that our players fail to take eg. Oba's glaring miss in the last game amongst others along the way. Perhaps the front/midfield men should undergo intensive sharp-shooting practise as an EXTRA to their usual work. It can't be denied they need it.
Victoria Swan
Key Player
Martin is producing football that is entertaining to watch and, as you say @ivoralljack, it's hardly his fault if the strikers aren't striking just yet. It will happen.