Yankee_Jack
Key Player
It has to be said that although under Andy Pandy there were questions; there were never any questions about the players’utilization and the players brought into the club.
Swansea City v Sheffield United. 19 February 2022 15.00
- Thread starter Behindthegoal
- Start date
Whilst we also had some pretty awful moments under Cooper, I do agree with this. Yesterday had to be the nadir of recent performances as there was absolutely nothing about the way we played that was acceptable. It was a disgrace and it seemed to me as though they had no interest in playing for the manager, the fans or even themselves. They didn't even have enough pride or self-esteem as a collective to put in the least effort to be professional about what they were doing. It looked as though they couldn't care less and Martin can bleat as much as he likes about them learning but Blades made us look like a bunch of crass amateurs that didn't deserve to be on the same pitch as them.
Did they really try? Do they want to be better as individuals? Do they want to improve as a team? It seems to me that we have too many players just content to turn up, do the least they have to then return to their plush homes perfectly happy to be the mediocre performers they are.
This is a damning indictment of the attitude that runs through the club and an equally damning indictment of Russell Martin and his coaching staff who have no experience other than at the lower levels of the game. KOL knows as much but was too polite to say so in commentary. However, his frustration was very evident and I'm sure he fought hard not to voice his true feelings. We do not have to be so diplomatic and the message to Martin and his players is a simple one - shape up or ship out!!
Victoria Swan
Key Player
He bleated like that after Nottingham Forest took us to the cleaners: "we'll learn from this and move on". Well they moved on but clearly didn't learn. Then Stoke showed us the door very convincingly and he said something about not being pleased and players would have to shape up. Well he continues not to be pleased and the players continue not to shape up. Now we're eviscerated by Sheffield United and it's the same old, same old. He has lost all credibility and performances spiral downwards instead of giving any evidence of "learning". Can't say I'm looking forward to watching the Bournemouth game - bit like anticipating food poisoning after being forced to eat rotten meat. Or is it like that awful scene in Clockwork Orange where they 'wire' Malcolm McDowell's eyes open and make him watch the scenes on the screen? Whatever it is I find myself dragging my sorry ass to the screen for each game now with zero expectation of anything but a poor performance. Not a great way to be a fan.
I did warn of this from day one but was told i was talking rubbish. At the Dons his football possession figures in comparison to their goals tally just didn't make sense. and this is being replicated by him with us.
Our last game Sheff U we hade 62% possession compared to their 38. and we lost 0 4
What they did with their 38% and what we did with our 62%. as follows.
Sheff U ................ Swans
Shots 12 ..................... 6
on target 6 ........................ 2
corners 5 ....................... 2
As I stated previously the Dons league position since his departure from them just about says it all.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
Martin’s Madness is defined by the data, now replicated twice. We don’t cross. To enter the final third just to pass your way out of it is a ridiculous waste of opportunity. When he hits on a goal scoring combination of players (e.g, Bristol), Martin ignores it and reverts to Madness. 
This is not sustainable in this division. Relegation beckons, and it will happen. The drop off in high level key metrics …. Goals for, goals against … year over year tell a story of one giant step backward. Martin has turned a silk-like purse into a sow’s ear …. Quite a feat given the players brought into the squad and the players amazingly moved out of it or ignored. This is his squad not Andy Pandy’s. There can be no excuses.
This is not sustainable in this division. Relegation beckons, and it will happen. The drop off in high level key metrics …. Goals for, goals against … year over year tell a story of one giant step backward. Martin has turned a silk-like purse into a sow’s ear …. Quite a feat given the players brought into the squad and the players amazingly moved out of it or ignored. This is his squad not Andy Pandy’s. There can be no excuses.
He's promised more changes for next season vowing to bring in players with the mental and physical attributes he deems are necessary for his style of football to be played. So what will this do to the mental attitude of his present players? Some might put in a lot more effort and application to try and ensure they won't be kicked out to make way for new blood. But, undoubtedly, others will shrug their shoulders and accept they'll be off at the end of the season and just do what they have to and no more. What this will do to performances and results for the remaining games is anyones' guess!!
As for new players, what sort of quality will they be knowing that our owners will shell out sweet fcuk all to bring in any decent talent? And what about the likes of Whittaker, Cullen, Garrick and both Coopers? None of them had a fair crack under Martin and, when they were played, it was in a team that was struggling to understand what Martin wanted, with players trying to perform out of position literally left, right and centre.
This man is so stubborn it almost defies belief. His way or the highway even when his way is rushing us headlong into disaster. He refuses/can't see what everyone else does, including experienced ex-players and other qualified coaches and voices at the Liberty. I read hundreds of posts online and I can't recall seeing one that supports what he's doing. Is he the only one who's right and the rest of us are all wrong? Wise up, man, and quickly!!!
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
Let's presume that Martin's Madness can be made to work.
Two questions have to be answered:
1) If we get into the Prem, can Martin's Madness be played at that level and keep us up ... can we get the players of sufficient quality to do that or are other Prem managers going to look at this and tweak here and tweak there, shut us down and win.
2) Next manager ... who ever that is ... is this the system they would want to inherit, and would embrace and continue. Or in order to hire anybody, would we have to face the reality of no-continuity and yet another rebuild.
#1 is a big if. #2 constrains our ability to hire the next manager. There's always going to be a next manager and continuity in any business has to be a critical part of the strategic plan.
Two questions have to be answered:
1) If we get into the Prem, can Martin's Madness be played at that level and keep us up ... can we get the players of sufficient quality to do that or are other Prem managers going to look at this and tweak here and tweak there, shut us down and win.
2) Next manager ... who ever that is ... is this the system they would want to inherit, and would embrace and continue. Or in order to hire anybody, would we have to face the reality of no-continuity and yet another rebuild.
#1 is a big if. #2 constrains our ability to hire the next manager. There's always going to be a next manager and continuity in any business has to be a critical part of the strategic plan.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
In response and support of @ivoralljack last post on yet more new players coming in ... are there players with the qualities to play Martin's Madness at the Championship level (never mind the Prem level) that are: a) available; b) affordable within a Championship club budget. I think the answer to that is simply "no". We're trying to do what is logistically and financially not possible.
The power (if you will) of Martinez, Sousa, Rogers was that they they made somewhat average players (e.g. Gower) to function at a consistently high level, at the peak of their abilities, within a system (generally 4-2-3-1 or something like that) that though novel at the time in the lower leagues was nonetheless pretty straight forward. The secret sauce was the coaching and training to get the likes of a Gower to pass and move at a high tempo with quality for 90 minutes. It wasn't the system. It was getting average players to excel in a simple system.
We could apply this same approach today, with this squad, and be very successful or at least more consistently competitive, more successful ... although we do have some players with attitude issues and we are lacking two bona fide wide players for the forward "3". We had Sinclair and Dyer, we've got nothing like them today. And, we've let quality exit (e.g. Robert and Bidwell) and have sloppy seconds as replacements.
Martin's Madness is Mission Impossible.
The power (if you will) of Martinez, Sousa, Rogers was that they they made somewhat average players (e.g. Gower) to function at a consistently high level, at the peak of their abilities, within a system (generally 4-2-3-1 or something like that) that though novel at the time in the lower leagues was nonetheless pretty straight forward. The secret sauce was the coaching and training to get the likes of a Gower to pass and move at a high tempo with quality for 90 minutes. It wasn't the system. It was getting average players to excel in a simple system.
We could apply this same approach today, with this squad, and be very successful or at least more consistently competitive, more successful ... although we do have some players with attitude issues and we are lacking two bona fide wide players for the forward "3". We had Sinclair and Dyer, we've got nothing like them today. And, we've let quality exit (e.g. Robert and Bidwell) and have sloppy seconds as replacements.
Martin's Madness is Mission Impossible.
It has always been, and still is, my contention that Cameron Toshack can take what Martin is doing (I have no problems with Martin's concept, just his execution of it) and improve it a great deal. He and Gary Richards took on the 'Unders' from the best teams in the country and won the League and Cup double. Of course it won't be easy. Tosh Jr has no League management experience, so he has a learning curve to negotiate. That said, I think he is well capable of doing it and, given time, would be a success. Also let's not forget that dad has some useful experience and would have advice and input that could only help.
CroJack
Key Player
Disagree. What about Woodman and Hourihane? And Peterson, Gyokeres, Arriola, Palmer, Freeman, Kalulu...? Also, it was Cooper who signed Hamer, Manning, Bennett and Smith.
It was Cooper who introduced 3 at the back, and a defensive setup with full-backs playing as wing-backs. Luckily for him he had Roberts on the right flank and Ayew up front, and luckily for him the referees were awarding us late penalties which won us some games.
And, please, don't sing Cooper's praises. He is as much a coward as Martin is. Both try to play risk-free football. Cooper defends by hoofing and giving possession away, whilst Martin defends by trying to keep possession. Neither of them plays attacking football. Of course, Cooper's ball is more effective, and there is a good reason why: it's difficult to break down teams who park the bus like Cooper's teams do, and it's easy to score against teams who regularly give the ball away in their own third like Martin's teams do. And when it comes to scoring goals, then Cooper's ball has a clear advantage - when his players steal the ball, either in the middle of the pitch or in the opposition third, then they usually don't have many defenders to beat. The chances they create are high quality and high value chances. With Martin's ball it's another way around - his players have to work hard to create half chances and when they create something then it's low quality and low value chances. That's why many Swans shots are from out of box. And just because Cooper plays another brand of poor football he shouldn't be praised for what he is doing. His football doesn't have future either.
When I think possession football then my first thought is passing accuracy, and the second one is high pressing/gegen-pressing. You have to dominate possession by regaining it quickly, and not by keeping it and doing fuck all with it!!! Actually, the faster you lose possession in the opposition third, the better. This means you are trying to do something, you are trying to cross, shoot, dribble and attack the opposition box. This looks like a paradox, but it's not. Just look how many time Man City and Liverpool lose possession through crossing, dribbling, and shooting. But they keep doing it, because they know the trick is in numbers. That's a good loss of possession, because it happens in or around opposition box, not in and around your own box, which is a bad loss of possession.
We just need a couple of tweaks when it comes to formation, personnel, and tactics. 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-1-4-1, and 4-4-2 are formations where you can play possession based football, and have a good defensive organisation with two dedicated centre-backs. Think Williams and Chico under Laudrup or Rodon and van der Hoorn under Potter. Even the best teams in Britain play with two dedicated centre-backs, at Man City it's Ruben Dias and Aymeric Laporte, and at Liverpool it's Van Dijk and Matip/Konate who play there.
I am angry with Martin because when he loses his job the vast majority of Swans fans will blame the passing football and want a manager who plays Cooper's brand of football. We will go back to what has relegated us from the Premier League and kept us in the Championship.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
I am not singing Andy Pandy's praises, however, he had good sense not to force square pegs into round holes and ask the players to do what is beyond their skill set and experience.
Agreed for the most part on players - under Andy Pandy, we did bring players into the club that didn't live up to expectations. Woody and Hourihan - were played far, far more than they deserved. Bennett and Smith were par and still are. The reset rode the bench or stayed in the stands or were injured trying to get up to speed - so we didn't have to suffer with them. We didn't have to suffer Manning at LB/LWB because Bidwell was getting the job done and getting assists, and we had Naughton also playing on the left side from time to time.
Agreed for the most part on players - under Andy Pandy, we did bring players into the club that didn't live up to expectations. Woody and Hourihan - were played far, far more than they deserved. Bennett and Smith were par and still are. The reset rode the bench or stayed in the stands or were injured trying to get up to speed - so we didn't have to suffer with them. We didn't have to suffer Manning at LB/LWB because Bidwell was getting the job done and getting assists, and we had Naughton also playing on the left side from time to time.
CroJack
Key Player
Yes.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
Liberty took a hit in the storm. Bournemouth was postponed - just as well. Any other matches likely to get impacted?
Yes, and if not that he'll have some other excuse already lined up.One game in 15 days, and I bet the players will be tired when we play Coventry on 5 March.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
We are playing West Brom on Monday away … has this changed.
Behindthegoal
Key Player
No. They’ll be stale for the Baggies and therefore tired for Coventry
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
At least they are not sick and tired ... wait that's us!