Potters at the Liberty
- Thread starter The Blobster
- Start date
The Blobster
Prediction Champ
Next up Rotherham on Monday night, odds on another defeat against one of the bottom teams , Let's hope we have a caretaker manager in by then . I've had an absolute gutsfull of Martins madness .
Victoria Swan
Key Player
There's a green cross, so a win. Red for a loss and division sign for a draw. At least I assume that's how it scans.
CroJack
Key Player
A win. Predictions are on the left side.
CroJack
Key Player
Exactly. But, Martin will be sacked tomorrow, so I am not sure about the players' reaction.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
Time to start the new Keeper.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
why sack him tomorrow? The staff would have to go, except for KOL. KOL would have to take over on an interim basis. Unless there is absolutely zero confidence that Martin can avoid relegation or the players are up in arms or there is a manager and team available to step in immediately, he has to stay to the end of the season.
If he was fired tomorrow, his pets might down tools. Would that be a big loss
. Fisher and Darling … I don’t think so, but who knows what others are going to go on a sulk.
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Yankee_Jack
Key Player
This chopping and changing between 3+2 and a back 4 is self defeating. Who is Martin kidding about our squad, we can barely play one system never mind be a master of two.
For the last set of matches, pick one, and for better or worse run with it and master it. Go with the Danish keeper. Play Cullen and Whitaker and Cooper, don’t play Ntcham, play Fulton, Grimes and Allen. Play Sori over Lati, at least Sori tries to cross. Play Naughton over Manning. Let’s put some senior heads on the field to drive the young bucks and let’s see what happens. Effectively this is 4231 although we lack the true wingers the system needs - it’s the best we can do.
note , I’m dropping those that have indicated they want out and those that disappear. I’m dropping Piroe … I’m not impressed by his output at all. And I’ve seen dead horses sprint faster than Ntcham (20% for 20 minutes is no way to go through life).
I like Cundle, but he’s a loanee so play Congreve. In other words put time into our own assets - the one exception being Sorinola as he gives us width and he’s trying.
It’s time to call the season a loss instead of limping along on false optimism and having our hopes dashed on every final whistle. I’d rather cheer for a team that loses but is busting a gut and giving it all than what we’re seeing at the moment. And, haven’t we all done that for a lot of seasons … it’s familiar territory. It’s time to look forward, prep forward, and be ready for next season before the end of this one.
For the last set of matches, pick one, and for better or worse run with it and master it. Go with the Danish keeper. Play Cullen and Whitaker and Cooper, don’t play Ntcham, play Fulton, Grimes and Allen. Play Sori over Lati, at least Sori tries to cross. Play Naughton over Manning. Let’s put some senior heads on the field to drive the young bucks and let’s see what happens. Effectively this is 4231 although we lack the true wingers the system needs - it’s the best we can do.
note , I’m dropping those that have indicated they want out and those that disappear. I’m dropping Piroe … I’m not impressed by his output at all. And I’ve seen dead horses sprint faster than Ntcham (20% for 20 minutes is no way to go through life).
I like Cundle, but he’s a loanee so play Congreve. In other words put time into our own assets - the one exception being Sorinola as he gives us width and he’s trying.
It’s time to call the season a loss instead of limping along on false optimism and having our hopes dashed on every final whistle. I’d rather cheer for a team that loses but is busting a gut and giving it all than what we’re seeing at the moment. And, haven’t we all done that for a lot of seasons … it’s familiar territory. It’s time to look forward, prep forward, and be ready for next season before the end of this one.
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Whilst I have time for KOL I hope he isn't given the job as a cheap option if Martin goes, which is my fervent hope. I'd still like to see Tosh jr handed his chance, if he wants it, 1) because I reckon we owe him and 2) because I think he'd do a decent job. And let's not forget his dad who has a wealth of successful managerial experience and is the type of man who'd tell his son straight out if he thought he was making a bollocks of anything.
The only problem is our owners and the board. I don't trust their judgement about anything other than their ability to strip anything worthwhile from our club. I have complete and utter contempt for the lot of them. But, whatever, one thing is certain and it's that we have to rid ourselves of Martin and his staff as soon as possible else we'll be staring at a relegation fight before we know it.
The only problem is our owners and the board. I don't trust their judgement about anything other than their ability to strip anything worthwhile from our club. I have complete and utter contempt for the lot of them. But, whatever, one thing is certain and it's that we have to rid ourselves of Martin and his staff as soon as possible else we'll be staring at a relegation fight before we know it.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
I'd be happy with CT, as good as what we have, actually has Prem experience, and we've living off the talent he developed for us for a number of seasons now - lest we forget McB, Roden, Roberts, James, and others that have gone elsewhere and prospered. Remember Kingsley at LB ... wouldn't he have been a much better option over Manning et al.
The internet is awash with the fans' condemnation of Russell Martin and his tactics. Not one single poster had a good word to say about him and there was a 100% feeling that his time is up and he should leave. Yet, and this almost defies belief, Martin thinks he's doing a good job and is expecting negotiations to RENEW HIS CONTRACT!! Is this man completely and utterly deluded? Surely even our owners aren't that suicidal.
I'm hoping against hope to hear that he and his staff have been dismissed. Quite simply, they deserve it.
I'm hoping against hope to hear that he and his staff have been dismissed. Quite simply, they deserve it.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
So once again I listened to Martin's post match. Once again he's laying it bare on his thinking and his positions. One reporter made an adverse comment based on the reporter's assessment of something that happened during the match ... Martin "politely" refuted the assessment.
Martin stated the three point remit that he received when hired (5:40): 1) return the Swansea way; 2) promote talent from within or find young talent and develop and turn into assets; 3) get as close as possible to the playoffs.
In fairness, Martin has not looked at that remit and publicly stated that it's fucking nuts; despite what he may think privately. There are obvious contradictions to the strategy. And, if #3 is the true expectation, then over time this is a lack of ambition and a recipe for decline not an aspiration / expectation of success.
Martin sees #1 and #2 as accomplished.
#1 can be debated - compare to Martinez, Sousa - Martinez established the Swansea way in final 1/4 of one season and through Oct of the next season followed by a march to top team in L1 with an arguably less talented and young squad. Sousa had the scoring guts of the team ripped out before he even started and almost made the playoffs (bettering Martinez' finish from the previous season) without a regular #9 largely by establishing a solid defense (Painter, Monk, Williams, Rangel).
#2: Martin's challenges are valid (I won't call them excuses because they are factual and are what they are, and he offers them up that way) - viz. youngest squad, smallest squad, etc. However, this has to be analyzed and compared with the Martinez, Sousa, and Rogers (EPL - where we were one of the youngest squads and often the youngest team starting EPL games).
@CroJack made a comment in another thread (?) relating the squad's age and I am intending to do a comparison of the squads from the Martinez, Sousa, Rogers and Laudrup seasons'.
Here's the thing: Martin has had the same core group of players for 1.75 seasons ... the acid test question ... are we better off today than on day 1 of season 1. If you ask the similar question of the Martinez era, the answer would be a resounding "yes". Similarly for Sousa's season from day 1 to last day of that season. Rogers survived the EPL in season 1, thanks largely in part to Sig's arrival, but he was tactically astute and learned / adjusted quickly, keeping it simple and effective. It also has to be noted that Martinez started it, Sousa evolved it and made it more resilient, Rogers evolved it and upgraded talent, Laudrup evolved it even further, upgraded talent, and brought a much higher level of tactical nous. Monk and those that followed f*%ked it up.
Martin inherited Andy Pandy's squad less Ayew and less top quality loans (Brewster, Guehi, Gallagher) that returned. So, it can be argued that Martin inherited a Sousa-esque situation. There are a lot of aligned and orthogonal issues to consider.
Martin thinks he's on track and struggling with circumstances rendering #3 a blue sky event but not saying so. I am of a mind that the vulnerabilities and lapses that we have seen manifested with regularity should have been dealt with and hammered out over the past 1.75 season, because clearly other managers are benefiting from 1.75 season's worth of video tape, going to school and know exactly how and where we can be defeated.
Martin comments (off the top of his head) that 1/3 of our goals are conceded from set pieces ... don't we have a coach to deal with that.
I find myself having sympathy for Martin on the one hand, but somewhat dismayed that remedies to fundamental deficiencies are still missing on the other. Again, I'm trying to draw comparisons to Martinez and Sousa (don't forget the infamous Scunthorpe league cup game where Sousa had the little U-21 kid on the field and we finished with 9 players with one crocked) and coming up with high expectations ... I need to think this through more.
Question: how long is too long for this to persist? if you scan the squad, what do you seeing being different next season? what are the gaps and can they be filled?
Which brings me back to replacements: who would you want come into this situation; who would (in their right mind) come into this situation.
CT maybe the only one good enough, yet crazy enough (heart strings) to accept the remit. Andy Pandy obviously thought he had flocked the horse as far as he could around the track and couldn't see the finishing line or at least one he liked.
Some other topics from the video (time point):
Martin stated the three point remit that he received when hired (5:40): 1) return the Swansea way; 2) promote talent from within or find young talent and develop and turn into assets; 3) get as close as possible to the playoffs.
In fairness, Martin has not looked at that remit and publicly stated that it's fucking nuts; despite what he may think privately. There are obvious contradictions to the strategy. And, if #3 is the true expectation, then over time this is a lack of ambition and a recipe for decline not an aspiration / expectation of success.
Martin sees #1 and #2 as accomplished.
#1 can be debated - compare to Martinez, Sousa - Martinez established the Swansea way in final 1/4 of one season and through Oct of the next season followed by a march to top team in L1 with an arguably less talented and young squad. Sousa had the scoring guts of the team ripped out before he even started and almost made the playoffs (bettering Martinez' finish from the previous season) without a regular #9 largely by establishing a solid defense (Painter, Monk, Williams, Rangel).
#2: Martin's challenges are valid (I won't call them excuses because they are factual and are what they are, and he offers them up that way) - viz. youngest squad, smallest squad, etc. However, this has to be analyzed and compared with the Martinez, Sousa, and Rogers (EPL - where we were one of the youngest squads and often the youngest team starting EPL games).
@CroJack made a comment in another thread (?) relating the squad's age and I am intending to do a comparison of the squads from the Martinez, Sousa, Rogers and Laudrup seasons'.
Here's the thing: Martin has had the same core group of players for 1.75 seasons ... the acid test question ... are we better off today than on day 1 of season 1. If you ask the similar question of the Martinez era, the answer would be a resounding "yes". Similarly for Sousa's season from day 1 to last day of that season. Rogers survived the EPL in season 1, thanks largely in part to Sig's arrival, but he was tactically astute and learned / adjusted quickly, keeping it simple and effective. It also has to be noted that Martinez started it, Sousa evolved it and made it more resilient, Rogers evolved it and upgraded talent, Laudrup evolved it even further, upgraded talent, and brought a much higher level of tactical nous. Monk and those that followed f*%ked it up.
Martin inherited Andy Pandy's squad less Ayew and less top quality loans (Brewster, Guehi, Gallagher) that returned. So, it can be argued that Martin inherited a Sousa-esque situation. There are a lot of aligned and orthogonal issues to consider.
Martin thinks he's on track and struggling with circumstances rendering #3 a blue sky event but not saying so. I am of a mind that the vulnerabilities and lapses that we have seen manifested with regularity should have been dealt with and hammered out over the past 1.75 season, because clearly other managers are benefiting from 1.75 season's worth of video tape, going to school and know exactly how and where we can be defeated.
Martin comments (off the top of his head) that 1/3 of our goals are conceded from set pieces ... don't we have a coach to deal with that.
I find myself having sympathy for Martin on the one hand, but somewhat dismayed that remedies to fundamental deficiencies are still missing on the other. Again, I'm trying to draw comparisons to Martinez and Sousa (don't forget the infamous Scunthorpe league cup game where Sousa had the little U-21 kid on the field and we finished with 9 players with one crocked) and coming up with high expectations ... I need to think this through more.
Question: how long is too long for this to persist? if you scan the squad, what do you seeing being different next season? what are the gaps and can they be filled?
Which brings me back to replacements: who would you want come into this situation; who would (in their right mind) come into this situation.
CT maybe the only one good enough, yet crazy enough (heart strings) to accept the remit. Andy Pandy obviously thought he had flocked the horse as far as he could around the track and couldn't see the finishing line or at least one he liked.
Some other topics from the video (time point):
- GD with respect to Wigan: 3:20
- Negative crowd reaction: 4:50 -- this is a gut blow for him
- Excuse summary: 5:15 -- above talking points.
- Reporter's assessment confict: 9:30
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CroJack
Key Player
1) Martin's ball is NOT the Swansea way. The last manager who has played the Swansea way was Graham Potter. I am not saying that we have never played the Swansea way under Martin, but that has been sporadic and in patches.
2) Yes. When we look at the stats the vast majority of our players have improved under Martin.
In season 2021/22 Paterson scored 9 goals and had 9 assists, Piroe scored 22 goals and had 6 assists, Obafemi scored 12 and had 3 assists, Manning has had his second and third best season ever under Martin, this season is Grimes' best season ever (1 goal and 6 assists already), Oli Cooper has scored 5 goals and has 2 assists this season, Ntcham's 4 goals and 3 assists in 2021/22 and 5 goals and 2 assists this season is the best he's ever produced on the football pitch, Cullen has already 5 goals and 1 assist this season, Sorinola has never scored 2 and assisted 2 at this level, same with Luke Cundle (1 goal and 2 assists this season), and this season is Joel Latibeaudiere's best one. Fulton has improved his passing and has almost double as many key passes per game as under Cooper.
But, but, but...
I doubt Oli Cooper and Luke Cundle would have gotten a chance had it not been for Paterson's injury and Ntcham's inability to play more than 20 minutes. I also doubt Cullen would have gotten a chance had Obafemi not gone AWOL trying to force a move to Burnley.
Let's not forget that Martin initialy froze Fulton out, sent one of our most talented players Whittaker out on loan, nd only sporadically played talented Oko-Flex.
Conclusion:
Martin can't take credit for some of our players' improvement, and for the others we'll never know whether they would improve even more under an other manager.
3) To be fair to Martin this Championship season is more competitive than ever. The big Championship clubs have excellent managers and top quality squads. Burnley, Sheff. United, Middlesbrough, Watford, Norwich, Blackburn and WBA are all up there in the top ten. Two experienced managers Alex Niel, at Stoke, and Nigel Pearson, at Bristol City, are below Swansea in the league table.
Interestingly, John Eustace, who was Swansea first choice candidate for the manager's job in summer 2021 is managing Birmingham and is 19th in the league table. Martin, who was allegedly the club's third choice, is currently 12th with Swansea.
I didn't make a comment on the squad's average age. My point was that this season only four senior players have performed at an acceptable level. In the beginning of the season Paterson was first injured and then frozen out, same with Obafemi. Ntcham can't last more than 20 minutes, Allen was also injured and can't last more than 70 minutes. Cabango and Lati are too slow to play high back line. The rest of the players are the players who have never (regularly) played at this level. Fisher, Benda, Wood, Darling, Cundle, Sorinola, Oko-Flex, Cooper, Congreve, Cullen, and now Whittaker.
It is pointless to do comparison with Martinez, Sousa, Rogers and Laudrup squads for different reasons. Each period in time is unique, the opposition is different (managers and players), the squad is different..., but I can bet that none of the managers you mentioned ever had 6-7 players in the starting XI who had never played at this level game after game after game.
No, he hasn't. Downes gone, Wolf gone, Laird gone, Christie gone, Smith gone, Hamer gone, Bennet gone, Paterson and Obafemi first injured, and then frozen out. That's too many players.
No, he hasn't. Roberts, Lowe, Ayew, Bidwell, Woodman, Hourihane, Dhanda, Gyokeres, Palmer, Peterson, Gibbs-White, Guehi, Brewster, Gallagher etc. all left before Martin took over.
Should I be completely honest? Keep Oli Cooper, Morgan Whittaker, Joe Allen, Jay Fulton, Matty Grimes and Liam Cullen. Get rid of all other players. We need a complete overhaul of the squad. But first of all we have to find an excellent goalkeeper.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
Martin's squad: you can't count players on loan (Laird recalled, Christie replaced Laird), I remember posting when Andy Pandy arrived and we drafted in a series of loan players that this was a short term fix for a long term problem. Instead of playing our own talent we chose to gave valuable game time to players on loan and here we are today, relying on players that should be a year ahead of where they currently are.
The core group are: Grimes, Fulton, Manning, Lati, Cabango, Cullen, Benda, Paterson, Piroe, Obafemi, Hamer, Joseph - then the "misfits" of Paterson, Bennet, Dhanda, Smith - then the pets of Darling, Fisher, Sorinola that he knew from MKD. He's had a core group of players that he should have kicked into shape by now. He chose to discard some, under utilize some, over utilize others.
Martin chose to use little or not at all then released: Dhanda, Bennet, Smith, Hamer (replaced by Fisher
), Garrick. Joseph has been loaned out like a hot potato.
The core group are: Grimes, Fulton, Manning, Lati, Cabango, Cullen, Benda, Paterson, Piroe, Obafemi, Hamer, Joseph - then the "misfits" of Paterson, Bennet, Dhanda, Smith - then the pets of Darling, Fisher, Sorinola that he knew from MKD. He's had a core group of players that he should have kicked into shape by now. He chose to discard some, under utilize some, over utilize others.
Martin chose to use little or not at all then released: Dhanda, Bennet, Smith, Hamer (replaced by Fisher
), Garrick. Joseph has been loaned out like a hot potato.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
Martinez are Sousa are interesting comparisons because they each started from challenging situations with compromised resources and fashioned something out of it.
Martinez inherited the hoof-ball squad from Jackett in Feb of 2006/07 - here's the squad from that season (Swansea City - Club profile 06/07). By the end of Oct 2007, Martinez had reinvented the squad and system and was about to claim #1 in the table and go on to win the title going away. Here's Martinez squad from 2007/2008 (Swansea City - Club profile 07/08), some of the more recognizable names like Ash Williams didn't join until the end of the season. This is Martinez's second season squad (Swansea City - Club profile 08/09)
Sousa arrived to see Scotland and Gomez gone and Bodde crocked - key goal scorers from the previous season. Sousa started the season with a projected GD of -21 - a relegation GD. Here is his squad (Swansea City - Club profile 09/10).
Martinez, Sousa and Rogers were able to take average to mediocre players and by using the "Martinez" system got them to play consistently at a level above. A key example is Leon Britton. In our system, in L1, Championship and Prem, he was terrific, but struggled badly when transferred to Sheff United in the Championship. Another example: Monk was lucky to get a game when he joined us on a free from Barnsley at the age of 25 ... he rode the train all the way into the Prem.
Management / Coaching is not about winning things, it's about maximizing the return on the resources at hand. After almost two seasons ... where is Martin on this metric. I can grade Martinez, Sousa, Rogers, Laudrup - it's easy to see what they did with what they were given. Martinez and Sousa were handed limited resources. Rogers had an easier time but still had to build and maximize especially in the Prem.
In retrospect, it can be argued that the Club played a fast one on the supporters. If they had come straight out and said from day one that "Andy Pandy has left, all of the little diamonds we had have gone too, and going forward we're going to playing a U-23 team as our first XI", we would have all gone WTF. Martin didn't say that except perhaps to his wife who probably pointed out how nice the Gower is. And here we are.
The big question: where do we go from here. It's not getting better. It's stagnated. It's potentially slipping away.
Martinez was gifted Scotland. Martin was gifted Piroe. Who maximized the return on these two resources?
Martinez inherited the hoof-ball squad from Jackett in Feb of 2006/07 - here's the squad from that season (Swansea City - Club profile 06/07). By the end of Oct 2007, Martinez had reinvented the squad and system and was about to claim #1 in the table and go on to win the title going away. Here's Martinez squad from 2007/2008 (Swansea City - Club profile 07/08), some of the more recognizable names like Ash Williams didn't join until the end of the season. This is Martinez's second season squad (Swansea City - Club profile 08/09)
Sousa arrived to see Scotland and Gomez gone and Bodde crocked - key goal scorers from the previous season. Sousa started the season with a projected GD of -21 - a relegation GD. Here is his squad (Swansea City - Club profile 09/10).
Martinez, Sousa and Rogers were able to take average to mediocre players and by using the "Martinez" system got them to play consistently at a level above. A key example is Leon Britton. In our system, in L1, Championship and Prem, he was terrific, but struggled badly when transferred to Sheff United in the Championship. Another example: Monk was lucky to get a game when he joined us on a free from Barnsley at the age of 25 ... he rode the train all the way into the Prem.
Management / Coaching is not about winning things, it's about maximizing the return on the resources at hand. After almost two seasons ... where is Martin on this metric. I can grade Martinez, Sousa, Rogers, Laudrup - it's easy to see what they did with what they were given. Martinez and Sousa were handed limited resources. Rogers had an easier time but still had to build and maximize especially in the Prem.
In retrospect, it can be argued that the Club played a fast one on the supporters. If they had come straight out and said from day one that "Andy Pandy has left, all of the little diamonds we had have gone too, and going forward we're going to playing a U-23 team as our first XI", we would have all gone WTF. Martin didn't say that except perhaps to his wife who probably pointed out how nice the Gower is. And here we are.
The big question: where do we go from here. It's not getting better. It's stagnated. It's potentially slipping away.
Martinez was gifted Scotland. Martin was gifted Piroe. Who maximized the return on these two resources?
CroJack
Key Player
Martin started the 2021/22 season with even worse projected goal difference of -40. We lost Ayew, Lowe, Roberts, Hourihane...
Piroe, Obafemi and Paterson were not proven goalscorers. Obafemi needed 6 months to 'adapt' and start scoring, whilst Paterson started his strike in November 2021 after an excelłent start to the season. Not an easy situation for a young, inexperienced manager.
But all of this should not be an excuse for Martin and his suicidal style of play. As a former player, and now manager, he should've immediately detect the main problem with his style of football:
You simply don't force your slow and technically poor defenders to play a risky football by passing the ball from the back when they are under pressure from the opposition's pacey and technically gifted attackers.
Martin has a mediocre Championship squad but even with this squad Swansea should've been higher in the league table. The idea with dominating possession is good, the execution has been awful.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
In Sousa’s case, the goal scorers were not replaced. Sousa had to scrape goals out of an empty bucket. Sousa offset the goal famine by tightening the defense and played a style not well liked by many, but proved very effective.
Martin was gifted Piroe - nobody knew how he would perform, but nobody had a clue about Scotland either. Martin received goal scorers. If Sousa had been gifted a scoring Piroe we would have been strongly challenging for promotion that season, instead of missing out of the playoffs in the last 10 minutes of the last game.
Martin was gifted Piroe - nobody knew how he would perform, but nobody had a clue about Scotland either. Martin received goal scorers. If Sousa had been gifted a scoring Piroe we would have been strongly challenging for promotion that season, instead of missing out of the playoffs in the last 10 minutes of the last game.
I remember poor Gorka Pintado was flogged to death in the cause. He was too willing and received little or no support. There were times when I expected to see him cross the ball then gallop into the middle to head his own cross at goal!! I know that's fanciful but I'm sure you get my drift.
But I well remember sitting in the East Stand during one game when we were attacking the South end. Gorka and a defender chased a hopeful pass down the right wing. They battled for it near the corner flag with much barging and pushing. Gorka won the ball, cut in and looked up for supporting runners, only to see Pratley and the entire midfield standing stock still on the halfway line just watching what he was doing instead of getting up there to help him. If I'd been Gorka I'd have chinned the lot of 'em back in the dressing room after the game.
But I well remember sitting in the East Stand during one game when we were attacking the South end. Gorka and a defender chased a hopeful pass down the right wing. They battled for it near the corner flag with much barging and pushing. Gorka won the ball, cut in and looked up for supporting runners, only to see Pratley and the entire midfield standing stock still on the halfway line just watching what he was doing instead of getting up there to help him. If I'd been Gorka I'd have chinned the lot of 'em back in the dressing room after the game.