Martin on the way out

Are you happy for Martin to continue ?

  • Yes , I'm happy for him to stay .

    Votes: 2 25.0%
  • No , the sooner he's gone the better .

    Votes: 6 75.0%

  • Total voters
    8

The Blobster

Prediction Champ
Martin flew out to the USA for talks with the owners group on Monday , and it has been reported that he has had assurances over transfer funding and has agreed an extension to his contract .
As yet this is unconfirmed, but it's being reported through many outlets .
I'm still on the fence over Martin but if he can keep up the end of season performances there may be some light on the horizon!
 

Yankee_Jack

Key Player
I find myself on the fence also. The sooner he takes his training wheels off the better. He’s been granted a considerable amount of rope by ownership. More than any other manager could expect in their dreams. If he continues into a third season, there can’t be any of that charity. There was a squad dismantling of sorts when Andy Pandy left, but he dropped the ball in season 1, barely bettered that on season 2. Time to shit or get off the pot.

I’m not fussed over losing Manning and Lati. Obafemi needs to move his attitude elsewhere. We have quite a few players mostly in the unders with contracts ending this summer (Rishesha is one of them). The 10-1 hammering of Birmingham demonstrates that there are players there that know how to get the job done. Can any of them break through and pressure / set aside the coasters from this past season?

Next season cannot be another development season, it has to be a delivery season, automatic promotion or odds-on favorite otherwise.
 

ivoralljack

Grizzled Veteran
Staff member
Sunderland looked a good young outfit with many promising players despite losing to Luton who bullied them out of it. They will be strong next season. If Nathan Jones gets hold of Cardiff, expect a big improvement from them as well. Watford and Norwich won't make the same mistakes as they did last season and, add the three relegated Premier League clubs busting a gut to go straight back up, the Championship is likely to be ultra-competitive next season.

Next season cannot be another development season, it has to be a delivery season, automatic promotion or odds-on favorite otherwise.
For the reasons I stated above, we'll have to hit the ground running and keep running if we expect to challenge the top. Defensive mistakes on their previous scale will have to be drastically reduced. NO MORE MARTINBALL WHEN BEING PRESSED NEAR OUR BOX!!! We need to be fitter, more physical, more athletic, more direct and play with more pace as a team. All these things can be achieved on the training pitch if the coaches are doing their jobs properly. Martin needs to make sure they are.
 

Behindthegoal

Key Player
I’m looking forward to another entertaining season, hopefully without the depressing run. For various reasons I have not renewed my season ticket for the next session but still intend to go to the majority of home matches.
 

Victoria Swan

Key Player
I'm not fussed about getting promoted. If it happens, great; if not then at least we should be in the mix at the end of the season. What I want is no periods of abysmal, leaky defense football leading to streaks of losses, most games entertaining even if we lose by a goal or two, and a repeat of this season's ability to score goals (whether with Piroe or some replacement). That's not asking for a lot but it is asking for more than Martin provided in his first two seasons.
 

Yankee_Jack

Key Player
Read the financials. There is an ongoing, accumulating net loss on operations. We can’t keep this up. We need to get promoted asap, or we’re going to have to cut payroll, with all of the negative consequences that implies. The downward spiral cannot be escaped.

We’re not generating the talent (quality and quantity) required to support the farm club business model.
 

CroJack

Key Player
I agree with @Victoria Swan (see the post #5).

All I want is some excellent attacking football and a solid, tight defence. Pace, vertical passing, dominating the ball, high passing accuracy... I really don't care much about Premier League football and a constant relegation battle. But, if we get promoted I won't complain :)

I didn't vote because:

- I am still mad at Martin for not making the necessary tweaks to his style much earlier,
- I am still not sure he will not go back to his beloved three at the back and that suicidal passing out from the back (too many “backs” in this sentence :oops:)
 

Yankee_Jack

Key Player
Are you sure about that? I saw many talented U21 players in that 10:1 Birmingham game.
we had a top U23 squad under Toshack … where are they now. Maybe one player will blossom enough per season to attract serious money. In the last 10 years we’ve produced Ben Davies, Connor Roberts, Joe Rodon, Dan James, Oli McBurnie that were sold for serious value, quickly spent. Fulton and Grimes have stuck around. The rest were released or moved on and have disappeared into lower leagues or industry. We now have Ben Cabango, Oli Cooper and Liam Cullen, the latter two hovering on the edge of the starting XI, but none of them looking like they are going to be big ticket names. And there’s also Wood and Whitaker … both could develop into real money … but Whitaker needs game time he’s not getting. Wood is possibly the better bet.

lf you’re going to operate as a farm club, loaning in other club’s kids is not the way to go about it. They just take valuable game time and resources away from your own talent. A farm club model needs to be generating sufficient player transfer revenue per season to offset operation losses and replenish cash reserves to cover the famine years. According to the most recent financials, now a year old, we’re nowhere near that.

what we don’t know is how deep a hole we are currently standing in.
 
Last edited:

ivoralljack

Grizzled Veteran
Staff member
I read today that Russell Martin is the runaway favourite to take over at Southampton. The bookies have him at 1/3. Next in line is Ruben Selles at a distant 10/1. I hope the bookies have it right in which case CT could be in with a chance. But, should the idiots at the Liberty choose to overlook him yet again, I reckon that I'm going to get pelters for suggesting that Nathan Jones might do a job for us. He certainly prepared the ground for Luton to get where they are, which has been acknowledged by Rob Edwards, the present manager.

The problem with this appointment is that Jones, second favourite for the Cardiff job behind Sol Bamba, is a life-long Cardiff supporter and it therefore begs the question of how deep his commitment would be to their greatest rivals. Food for thought but, for me, Cameron Toshack should be given the chance he absolutely deserves given his success with the 'Unders' team. He and KOL would be a good team but NOT the other way round.
 

CroJack

Key Player
A farm club model needs to be generating sufficient player transfer revenue per season to offset operation losses and replenish cash reserves to cover the famine years. According to the most recent financials, now a year old, we’re nowhere near that.
That's because Steve Cooper didn't want to use our U23/U21 players and the youngsters he signed on a permanent basis. Instead, he took players on loan from PL clubs, players we couldn't keep at the end of their loan spells. The finances for the 2021/22 season mark the end of the Steve Cooper era.

2019/20 (Cooper's first season with us)

Signed

Kristoffer Peterson
, 24, for £550k, and Jake Bidwell, 26, on free transfer.
All other signings were loans.

Sold

Oli McBurnie, Dan James and Jordan Ayew
for approx. £35m.

Profit from transfers = £34.45m

2020/21 (Cooper's second season with us)

Signed

Jamal Lowe
, 26, for £800k, Morgan Whittaker, 20, for £700k, Ryan Manning, 24, for £200k, and Joel Latibeaudiere, 20, for an undisclosed fee. Some other players were signed either as free agents or for an undisclosed fee, but they are not interesting because all of them were older players without any re-sell value (Ryan Bennett, Korey Smith, Kieron Freeman and Ben Hammer).

Sold

Joe Rodon, Bersant Celina, Joel Asoro and Kristoffer Peterson
for £15m.

Profit from transfers = £13.3m

2021/22 (Martin's first year with us)

Signed

Michael Obafemi
, 21, for £1.8m, Flynn Downes, 22, for £1.5m, Joel Piroe, 21, for £1.1m, Kyle Joseph, 19, for £500k, Andy Fisher for £450k, and Nathaniel Ogbeta for an undisclosed fee. Liam Walsh, 23, Olivier Ntcham, 25, and Jamie Paterson, 29, were all signed on free transfers. Wolf, Williams, Laird and Christie were signed on loan.

Sold

Connor Roberts
for £2.7m and Jamal Lowe for £1.6m.

Profit from transfers = - £1.05m

In 2022/23 (Martin's second year with us)

Signed

Harry Darling
, 22, for £2.2m, Nathan Wood, 20, for an undisclosed fee, and Joe Allen as a free agent.

Sold

Flynn Downes
for £10.5m and Jordon Garrick for undisclosed fee.

Profit from transfers = approx. £8m

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In his two years in charge, Steve Cooper has only signed four under-25 players who could have been developed and sold for a profit: Kristoffer Peterson, Morgan Whittaker, Ryan Manning and Joel Latibeaudiere. None of them played much under Cooper. We lost money on Peterson, Manning and Latibeaudiere. We can either use and develop Whittaker or sell him for more than we paid for him.


Martin has so far signed ten under-25s who could have been, or can be, developed and sold at a profit: Michael Obafemi, Flynn Downes, Joel Piroe, Kyle Joseph, Andy Fisher, Nathaniel Ogbeta, Liam Walsh, Olivier Ntcham, Harry Darling and Nathan Wood. Most of these players have played a lot under Martin. Obafemi was sold for a pittance and Downes for a considerable profit. All the others are still with us. Piroe, Wood and Ntcham can be sold for a substantial profit.


As you can see, there is a huge difference between Steve Cooper and Russell Martin when it comes to transfer market strategy. Steve Cooper didn't sign many young talented players, and when he did, he didn't use them at all. He used loan players from other clubs. Steve Cooper also didn't use our academy players at all. Russell Martin, on the other hand, bought a lot of young players to play and develop. He also brought Oli Cooper, Liam Cullen, Cameron Congreve and Steven Benda into the first team.


In my opinion, Steve Cooper wasted two years of the club's progress and money by forcing loans on players who were never going to sign for us. He hasn't developed any of our own players.
 
Last edited:

ivoralljack

Grizzled Veteran
Staff member
I think Cooper's strategy was to use better quality, more experienced loan players to get us into the PL. He came close but, unfortunately, narrowly failed to get us there. The nett result for us was that the loan players returned to their clubs and we were left with a bunch of untried, inexperienced youngsters as you so well outlined above. If Cooper had succeeded in getting us promoted we'd all have been singing his praises but his was a risky strategy that set us back badly. I've been as loud as anyone in being critical about Martin over his shortcomings BUT much of his work has been good for us especially in giving youngsters a chance. Mind you, I think he had no choice there as our owners probably didn't want to fork out heavy loan fees and wages on better quality players having seen Cooper fail following that particular path.
 

Yankee_Jack

Key Player
The likes of Ntcham and Walsh are unlikely to be sold on for profit due to their age.

Excellent analysis @CroJack and when you paint that picture it's pretty clear that there was a fundamental pivot in strategy after Cooper left. I remember vociferously opining early in the Cooper's first season that the players we were bringing in on loan were to the detriment of our own academy players.

Still, we are faced with net loses. I was surprised how low match day revenue was. I don't see a big ticket player on our books at the moment. Piroe was passed over after his first season. I expect the same to happen this summer. For some reason, no club thought he was worth the money we were asking or thought enough of him, or found some element of him, that made them reluctant to bid.
 

CroJack

Key Player
The likes of Ntcham and Walsh are unlikely to be sold on for profit due to their age.
We signed them both on a free transfer. Ntcham is 27 (born in February) and Walsh is 25 (born in September). They are relatively young for midfielders.

I remember vociferously opining early in the Cooper's first season that the players we were bringing in on loan were to the detriment of our own academy players.
Yes.

I don't see a big ticket player on our books at the moment. Piroe was passed over after his first season. I expect the same to happen this summer.
I think Piroe has improved this season. But the shitty football we played for most of the season has set him back in terms of goals and assists. I am pretty sure there will be some Championship clubs interested in buying a striker who can guarantee them 20 goals a season.
 

Yankee_Jack

Key Player
No Prem club is going to be interested in Ntcham and Walsh. Any Championship club would wait for their contact to expire and get them on a free or if they are desperate pay for them now. But, the most we could get is the value in the balance of their contract, which would pay for "tea and biscuits", it's not going to make a big dent in the annual losses, nor cover much of the payments we are making on notes that have provided working capital etc.

Ntcham is a 27 year old that came to us in such poor physical condition that only recently has he been able to play 90 minutes without disappearing from sight. The word I got from a dyed in the wool Celtic supporter and former controller was effectively thank god he's gone.

Walsh has a record of injury that handicapped his progress and at this point he's not going to blossom into anything that other clubs are likely to pay serious money for.

Ntcham and Walsh are just like Fulton and Grimes. F&G are not going anywhere for any money unless a lower league club comes knocking and offers them more than they're making with us and whatever cheeky amount we can convince them to cough up as a transfer fee. Question: if you had to choose between keeping Fulton/Grimes or Nthcam/Walsh ... who are you going to pick?

Piroe may be able to produce another 20 goal season for us, but I don't think he can guarantee that output, and I defer to the obvious disinterest by EPL clubs. Burnley choose Obafemi over Piroe ... why?
 

ivoralljack

Grizzled Veteran
Staff member
More on Martin - Sky Sports now reporting that he's on their shortlist. Candidates will be interviewed in early course so we should know one way or the other before long.
 

Yankee_Jack

Key Player
The one positive from Soton hiring Martin: he'll have them finishing 15th in their first season and going through massive swings in consistency as they struggle to play pass it out from their goal line football, overcome their aversion to crossing and other backwards strategies that Martin's Madness entails.

There's also a second positive ... the new guy will start to make best use of players such as Cooper, Cullen, Whittaker, Benda coupled with the 3 amigos in Grimes, Allen and Fulton. All-in-all it could be a good thing.
 
Top Bottom