Bony to stay?

ivoralljack

Grizzled Veteran
Staff member
Interesting. What is his real motive though? He says it's because he wants to help us get back to the PL but it might be because of the wages he gets from us. I wouldn't have thought that he'd move for less money, so maybe if he isn't being offered the same, he doesn't want to go. I don't know if his contract stipulates less wages to play for us now that we've been relegated, in which case he might be genuine. Interesting to see how this pans out because he doesn't strike me as a Potter type player.
 

LittlePuma

Key Player
Interesting. What is his real motive though? He says it's because he wants to help us get back to the PL but it might be because of the wages he gets from us. I wouldn't have thought that he'd move for less money, so maybe if he isn't being offered the same, he doesn't want to go. I don't know if his contract stipulates less wages to play for us now that we've been relegated, in which case he might be genuine. Interesting to see how this pans out because he doesn't strike me as a Potter type player.
I think it’s probably a little of both. I believe he has affections for the club and is also looking out for his financial interests. It might be in everyone’s best interests if he stays until Jan and gets some matches/fitness in.
 

Jackflash

Midfield General
Staff member
I think it’s probably a little of both. I believe he has affections for the club and is also looking out for his financial interests. It might be in everyone’s best interests if he stays until Jan and gets some matches/fitness in.
I think the days of players affection for a club are long gone. Probably one of the reasons is todays agents, they make the player money orientated for their own ends.Regarding Bony, there's no way he'd get a wage of £100K + out here with his present lack of game time and fitness level,in fact I think even a fit Bony would find it hard to cope with the speed of the game. Gomis is on record saying it's more demanding than the European game.
 

Ladygargar

Fox in the Box
Staff member
I have no problem with him staying if he can fix his legs and drop his wage claim - I think it’s probably a few things like reality about his fitness and likely reluctance to buy him by anywhere he’d want to go - also I’m sure I read somewhere his kids wanted to come back here and I do believe he has some affection for the club; he needs to be affordable and useful though if all the boxes are getting ticked.
 

CroJack

Key Player
Resructuring is a nicer word for the squad clearout. Ideally, we should go back to the basic idea that players we sign and players who stay should fit into our style of play, not vice versa.

Unfortunately, we don't know which style of football we'll be playing in the Championship.

Bony was bought by Manchester City as a backup for Aquero when Manuel Pellegrini was their manager, and Pellegrini played mostly 4-2-3-1. If we play 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2, 4-3-2-1 etc. then we should keep Bony. His physical strength and hold-up play is fantastic, and we'll not be missing his lack of pace so much. But when Pep Guardiola took over at Manchester City, he immediately changed their formation to 4-3-3 and demanded pace in all positions. There was no need for slow-motion players like Bony and Toure anymore, no matter how good they were. Bony is too slow to play Guardiola's style of play, where players have to press and run into spaces constantly. Bony would, on the other hand, fit perfectly in Mourinho's 4-2-3-1 as a backup for Lukaku. Mourinho likes physically strong strikers who can bully opposition defenders.

Ideally, we should be able to play both styles with 4-3-3 as our main formation. Pace and clinical finishing up front, tackles and creativity in midfield. But when opposition park the bus against us we should use Bony as the plan B. The question is can we afford £5 m in wages for a striker who will be sitting on the bench for most of the season?

Why 4-3-3 as our main formation? Well if we want to play attractive attacking football, then we should follow the path of two Premier League clubs who play 4-3-3 and who play most attractive attacking football in Britain - Manchester City and Liverpool. They scored more goals than any other team, they are successful and joy to watch. Manchester City won the Premier League title and Liverpool played the Champions League final.

You may say we need world star players to play such football, but that's not true. Remember that first half against West Brom under Laudrup? We played world class football with some of the players who have been shit while playing under other managers, systems and formations. Henderson, Milner and Wijnaldum are not world stars, but they run and tackle like crazy.

Can we afford Bony's wages? Yes, if the club's priority is an imminent return to the Premier League. We have sold Fabianski for £7 m to West Ham, and that's more than enough to cover Bony's wages. If we sell Mawson and Andre Ayew, we should have money enough to keep the others and even strenghten in key areas.
 

Jackflash

Midfield General
Staff member
I'd be pretty sure Bony himself feels his present situation with the club doesn't warrant the wage he's drawing,even when fit if he continues on this wage, then the expectations of the faithful will surely exert some pressure on him
 

The Blobster

Prediction Champ
The only pressure that bony feels is applied by his agent who must be itching for yet another easy pay day.
Its about time that agents percentages came out of their employers pocket not out of the club their player has signed for.
 

ivoralljack

Grizzled Veteran
Staff member
Wilf has a son in the academy, I believe. Perhaps he wants to hang on until they can both play in the firsts?
And I wonder if Baby Bony is a chip off the old block. I'll bet he's stronger than most of our first team already!! o_O:D

I'll never forget the wonderful Bill Mclaren commentating on a Wales rugby match. Craig, the younger brother of Scott, was waiting to come on as a replacement. And Bill Mclaren said something like, "And Baby Quinnell will shortly be taking the field." I looked at this 'baby' in disbelief with folds of fat on a neck that was much thicker than my thigh, standing 6ft 6" and weighing 20+ stone!!! Some baby.
 

jackodiamonds

Set-Piece Specialist
Staff member
Based on everything I've taken in about Potter so far, I wouldn't be expecting a specific system in Swansea this season, at least not a numerical one (ie 4-4-2, 4-3-3 etc). In Potter's interviews about tactics, he'll occasionally drop in a throwaway line about how the numbers don't matter. He'll play several "numerical" systems throughout a season, many of which will change in-game. This seems to be key to his philosophy, which is predicated on fluidity and personnel who are flexible enough to play a couple of roles.

I like his thinking. As soon as you nail your squad to one shape, it becomes easier to beat because every system has its weaknesses. I think Potter's "amorphous" system is a big reason he's managed to overachieve, but regardless of shape or numbers, every side needs a goalscorer, and (fit) Bony is one. He's also a slow burner, which is why for me he has to start, and has to play as much as possible. He's the antithesis of an impact sub, which is another reason he struggled at City, but we've all seen what happens when you give him big minutes.
 
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CroJack

Key Player
In Potter's interviews about tactics, he'll occasionally drop in a throwaway line about how the numbers don't matter. He'll play several "numerical" systems throughout a season, many of which will change in-game. This seems to be key to his philosophy, which is predicated on fluidity and personnel who are flexible enough to play a couple of roles.
That's what I am afraid of. Some of our donkeys can hardly understand one system, not to talk about many different systems.

The advantage of playing one formation most of the time is that players develop a telepatic understanding on the pitch and patterns of movement. Ever changing formations create confusion.

As soon as you nail your squad to one shape, it becomes easier to beat because every system has its weaknesses.
It is easier to beat a team whose players are confused than the team whose players know their roles. Does 4-3-3 formation Guardiola and Klopp use makes them easier to beat? How come they score more than any other Premier League team? As much as I seen you can only beat them if you park the bus and hope to score from either counter-attack or set-piece. If you try to play some football against them you get trashed 5:0, 6:0, 7:0...
The only weakness their system has is that you feel disappointed when they win 1:0 or 2:0. Thinkering and using different systems is not their cup of tea. Guardiola should be awarded Nobel prize in football for saying "I don't know how to defend". That's how we should be playing in the Championship. Like champions. No compromises. If we base our philosophy on how to adapt to opposition, we won't finish in the top ten.
 

Ladygargar

Fox in the Box
Staff member
If we play defensive football we won’t finish in the bottom ten and we will lose more supporters along the way - it’s such an emotional investment apart from the hard earned cash - the fans deserve much better than was offered up to them last season - we don’t need to file out feeling low and defeated - we can all stay home and feel that. So COYS!!! Get a top three finish or die trying - end of.
 

jackodiamonds

Set-Piece Specialist
Staff member
Ever changing formations create confusion
This is the thing - it likely wont be an "ever changing formation". Football demands that teams are configured in a way which reads easily for media, hence numerical systems. Potter won't coach his squad to play several numerical systems, and then expect them to change between. As you've pointed out, that would be too much for the players to cope with. Rather, Potter's system is more fluid than will happily fit in a numerical format. His players will all know their roles, and those roles will adjust slightly depending on the game as would always be the case, but the system itself might be a little more fluid than we're used to seeing. I imagine when he hands in his team sheet, he has to write something down in terms of numerical systems for broadcast purposes, but he won't play "classic" versions of any of these systems, and his work with Ostersunds shows it can be effective.

Does 4-3-3 formation Guardiola and Klopp use makes them easier to beat
Yes and no. No, because the players they have are world class, so you need a comparable squad to go toe-to-toe, and very few have. Yes, because Klopp proved it. Liverpool were Man City's bogey team last season for a reason. Those games were mostly shootouts, but Klopp's high pressing game exposed City's weak defense in a way other teams couldn't, because other teams are too busy getting battered by City's offense. Guardiola is an excellent coach, and City have an excellent squad, but even that team had its weakness, and Klopp's philosophy and squad was perfectly set-up to exploit it (admittedly Liverpool got at least one favourable decision in the Champions League). Sure, Burnley also got something our of City, but that was a fluke of Dyche's horrible one-trick anti-football. As for Liverpool - they were like City. Great offense, secretly (nor not so secretly in Liverpool's case) weak defensively. City's bad defense was protected by it's heavyweight offense. Neither team won the Champions League, which is ultimately the contest both are measured by, moreso that the Prem (which has 28 soft games for a side like City). Also, isn't Guardiola's system more often a 2-3-2-3, at least when in possession?

If we base our philosophy on how to adapt to opposition, we won't finish in the top ten.
I agree with this. I've said before that Potter has so far won success being a reactive manager with an underdog squad. In Swansea, he will lead a squad that is considered a favourite in the division, and you can't play reactively in this situation. You have to lead games, and assert dominance. I believe this will be his biggest challenge, but he can do it playing his amorphous football.



.
 

CroJack

Key Player
Rather, Potter's system is more fluid than will happily fit in a numerical format. His players will all know their roles, and those roles will adjust slightly depending on the game as would always be the case, but the system itself might be a little more fluid than we're used to seeing.
I think you've misunderstood me.
I've never favoured totally rigid systems and one dimensional football. Every system changes shapes during a football match, depends on whether you are attacking, defending or just playing tennis in the middle of the park. It can't be different.

I hope Potter's system will be much more fluid than we've been used to see in the past four years. We've played defensive football, and defensive football per definition requires rigid formations. Only attacking football allows fluidity which is another word for creativity. Creativity is not only through balls, it's much more: one-twos, triangles, running into spaces with and without ball, take-ons, perfect crosses, wingers changing flanks....

Yes and no. No, because the players they have are world class, so you need a comparable squad to go toe-to-toe, and very few have. Yes, because Klopp proved it. Liverpool were Man City's bogey team last season for a reason. Those games were mostly shootouts, but Klopp's high pressing game exposed City's weak defense in a way other teams couldn't, because other teams are too busy getting battered by City's offense. Guardiola is an excellent coach, and City have an excellent squad, but even that team had its weakness, and Klopp's philosophy and squad was perfectly set-up to exploit it (admittedly Liverpool got at least one favourable decision in the Champions League). Sure, Burnley also got something our of City, but that was a fluke of Dyche's horrible one-trick anti-football. As for Liverpool - they were like City. Great offense, secretly (nor not so secretly in Liverpool's case) weak defensively. City's bad defense was protected by it's heavyweight offense. Neither team won the Champions League, which is ultimately the contest both are measured by, moreso that the Prem (which has 28 soft games for a side like City). Also, isn't Guardiola's system more often a 2-3-2-3, at least when in possession?
The reason I like 4-3-3 is that it doesn't require world class players whilst allows you to effectively press high. Klopp didn't have world class players in the midfield and at the back last season, and still managed to beat Manchester City three times and reach Champions League final. Manchester City have, without doubt, world class players in almost all positions. High pressing and work rate did the trick for Liverpool. It's not that Manchester City had poor defenders, the rest of the squad was always so high on the pitch leaving defenders outnumbered and vulnerable to Liverpool's counter-attacks.

What I want to see from Swansea under Potter:

1. High pressing is on the top of my wish list
2. Midfielders who are running, tackling and providing through balls
3. Front three scoring goals. Not only a lump up front waiting for crosses, all three must score.
4. Attacking full-backs providing crosses


I've said before that Potter has so far won success being a reactive manager with an underdog squad. In Swansea, he will lead a squad that is considered a favourite in the division, and you can't play reactively in this situation. You have to lead games, and assert dominance. I believe this will be his biggest challenge, but he can do it playing his amorphous football.
I disagree we'll have a squad that is considered a favourite, but even with a poorer squad we should be able to play high pressing football and assert dominance. We should be able to do the same thing to our opponents what Liverpool did to Manchester City last season.
 

jackodiamonds

Set-Piece Specialist
Staff member
What I want to see from Swansea under Potter:

1. High pressing is on the top of my wish list
2. Midfielders who are running, tackling and providing through balls
3. Front three scoring goals. Not only a lump up front waiting for crosses, all three must score.
4. Attacking full-backs providing crosses
I can't argue with that. I think the only person who likes goal-scoring wingers more than me is you XD I think Asoro has goals in him (even though he was hardly prolific at Sunderland), and it was interesting to see Narsingh tried on the left against Newport and scoring as a result -- putting wings on the opposite side to their favoured foot is almost always done to encourage shooting (and scoring).
 

ivoralljack

Grizzled Veteran
Staff member
putting wings on the opposite side to their favoured foot is almost always done to encourage shooting (and scoring).
Believe it or not this tactic was adopted by the great Wolverhampton Wanderers team of the 50s. It was argued that when the winger cut inside his FB, the ball would automatically run on to his favoured foot. Where it fell down was when the winger headed for the goal line to cross the ball but it was then on his weaker foot. As defenders became more savvy, they would show the winger down the line to keep him on his weaker foot. But until defences learned this lesson, Wolves had a 'golden era' in their history when they won two league titles and the FA Cup under legendary manager Stan Cullis. They also beat both Spartak Moscow and Hungarian maestros Honved in floodlit friendlies. Honved boasted many of the Hungarian national team that had recently beaten England 6-3 at Wembley and 7-1 shortly after in Budapest with the legend Ferenc Puskas creating complete havoc. It was a national shock!! Btw, years before statistics became commonplace in football, Wolves clocked up 54 shots at goal in one game!
 
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