Stop splitting hairs!!When he took over we were in the relegation places with 0 points.
Stoke v Swans
- Thread starter Yankee_Jack
- Start date
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
Here's the question: we lost Robert, Ayew, Guehi, and Woody but picked up Piroe and Downes and let's add Paterson. We had Benda. We didn't really replace Roberts -- not counting Christy at the start of the season, but he's not Roberts.
All other things being equal. Could Andy Pandy have done better with this squad.
All other things being equal. Could Andy Pandy have done better with this squad.
CroJack
Key Player
They are good enough to play better football, even the passing football, but better football requires some running, moving, pressing and fighting, which we don't do. And better football requires a manager who is more flexible than Martin is.
When Martin switched to 4 at the back with 2 dedicated centre-backs against Luton, I thought Hallelujah the blind has received the sight! We lost, but we played a good game with a lot of movement and attacking intent. What is more important, Cabango and Bennett played centrally as real centre-backs, and they were actually defending by facing opposition attackers, not running behind them whilst hopelessly trying to catch them.
with Grimes dropping down from time to time to form 4 at the back
and the three at the back playing pretty close to each other
What happens against Stoke?
Last edited:
CroJack
Key Player
Against Stoke we play again 3 at the back, this time Cabango pushed to the left side, Bennet to the right, and Downes in the middle.
This is the situation just before we conceded the first goal. See where Cabango is, and that's not the place where he should be.
Fulton and Cabango fail to block the low cross sent into our box
a shot, and a lucky rebound follow, and Stoke score
This is the situation just before Stoke's second goal. Downes passes the ball to Cabango,
who makes a sloppy pass into the dangerous area in our half, and Stoke initiate a counter-attack.
Already here Stoke have more players in our third. This is suicidal tactics, and it's not
a surprise we keep conceding goals. Also, look how the complete Swansea midfield is
missing from the midfield area.
This is the situation just before we conceded the first goal. See where Cabango is, and that's not the place where he should be.
Fulton and Cabango fail to block the low cross sent into our box
a shot, and a lucky rebound follow, and Stoke score
This is the situation just before Stoke's second goal. Downes passes the ball to Cabango,
who makes a sloppy pass into the dangerous area in our half, and Stoke initiate a counter-attack.
Already here Stoke have more players in our third. This is suicidal tactics, and it's not
a surprise we keep conceding goals. Also, look how the complete Swansea midfield is
missing from the midfield area.
Last edited:
CroJack
Key Player
Don't get me wrong, I am not criticising Cabango here. I am criticising Martin for putting Cabango in such uncomfortable situations. Cabango is an excellent old-school centre-back, but he is too slow to play in wide positions and he is not technically gifted to play this style of football.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
Looking forward to the next installment.
I find it somewhat stunning that if you can see all this, and the likes of Trundle, Robertson, Wyndham, et al on the commentary can see it ... then why can't Martin's brains' trust. None of this is new ... it's been there in one form or another, festering away, from day one.
His analysts should have spotted all this. If they haven't they've been stealing a living and should be sacked. If they have then Martin and his squad of players are at fault in whatever proportion applies. Can't Martin coach the necessary? If he can, are the players capable of implementing the game plan on match day? A bit of both I'd say. But it's about time that Martin stopped being so stubborn and started his best players in their best positions instead of asking them to play out of their comfort zone. But telling us that he has players who aren't fit enough to do what is required beggars belief. Jeez, whose responsibility is that then???????? The dedicated fitness coaches should be fired for a start!!
The dedicated fitness coaches should be fired for a start!!
It was no surprise to me to see Downes in the middle of defence. At MK Dons (according to WhoScored), Martin mostly played a 3-5-1-1. If you drill down into the stats you'll see the central of the three defenders always had a lot of the ball, and this is why Martin likes Naughton there.
Remember how under Rodgers, Leon Britton used to drop back and take a position between the two centre backs, and how Swansea would typically start their play by feeding him the ball? Martin is trying to use his middle central defender in the same way, and in order to achieve this, he needs a ball player in that spot. This is why Cabango and Bennett have to settle for the outside positions for which they are poorly suited as @CroJack has pointed out.
In terms of player roles, Swansea's "three-man defence" is meant to be three centre backs, but is effectively a midfielder between two full backs (with another two full backs masquerading as wingers ahead of them). In terms of personnel, it has centre backs playing as those full backs and a full back (or more recently a midfielder) as the midfielder.
I think Martin's conceit is that he's so fixated on possession football he wants to single-handedly evolve the defence into a kind of secondary midfield. His formation might nominally be a 3-4-2-1 or a 3-5-1-1, but practically it is more like a 0-9-1.
Swansea have the fifth-worst attack in the division, the seventh-worse defence, but are top for possession. Looks like midfield dominance isn't actually worth that much in a game where the point is to score goals. Who'd have thought?
Remember how under Rodgers, Leon Britton used to drop back and take a position between the two centre backs, and how Swansea would typically start their play by feeding him the ball? Martin is trying to use his middle central defender in the same way, and in order to achieve this, he needs a ball player in that spot. This is why Cabango and Bennett have to settle for the outside positions for which they are poorly suited as @CroJack has pointed out.
In terms of player roles, Swansea's "three-man defence" is meant to be three centre backs, but is effectively a midfielder between two full backs (with another two full backs masquerading as wingers ahead of them
). In terms of personnel, it has centre backs playing as those full backs and a full back (or more recently a midfielder) as the midfielder.I think Martin's conceit is that he's so fixated on possession football he wants to single-handedly evolve the defence into a kind of secondary midfield. His formation might nominally be a 3-4-2-1 or a 3-5-1-1, but practically it is more like a 0-9-1.
Swansea have the fifth-worst attack in the division, the seventh-worse defence, but are top for possession. Looks like midfield dominance isn't actually worth that much in a game where the point is to score goals. Who'd have thought?
Behindthegoal
Key Player
It would be a nightmare, wouldn’t it?
If you want to play possession football, period, your aim must be 100%.
This is impossible because the opps must kick off at some stage in the match.
And of course every time you take a shot you lose possession, whichever side of the net it lands.
If you want to play possession football, period, your aim must be 100%.
This is impossible because the opps must kick off at some stage in the match.
And of course every time you take a shot you lose possession, whichever side of the net it lands.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
Which is why we rarely shoot or cross even. Crossing is tantamount to a low probability pass and therefore risking loss of possession. It’s absurd.
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
Further to @jackodiamonds … There is a fundamental difference between Rogers and Martin. Leon primarily played in front of the two CBs and appeared between them as part of a transition and not as a defender - a very busy midfielder. Naughton / Downes are there primarily as a defender which is why Fulham, for example, were able to isolate him time and again as the weakest link against their #9. And as has been pointed out this deeper use of the “ball player” is the crux of our problem as it pushes other players into unnatural or unorthodox roles … and it has resulted in the movement out of players (e.g, Bidwell) that are highly effective in an orthodox 3+2 but Martin placed no value in.
There’s no secret as to how to build a successful squad … add to the top of the deck, remove from the bottom of the deck. Add to the top 5-10% and cull the bottom 5-10%. We did this for the most part quite well during the Martínez to Laudrup era. However, recently we’ve been going in reverse: our top 5-10 % have been leaving and we’ve added to the middle bottom of the deck. We had Ayew replaced by Piroe. We had Rodon replaced by Bennet and now Naughton, not giving Cooper a chance. We had James replaced by Paterson of late. We had Roberts replaced by Laird and Christy. We had Nordfeldt, replaced by Woodman, replaced by Hamer. We had Bidwell and we replaced with Manning then Lati then Ogbeta who arrives and immediately gets crocked. It’s a continual spiral down. You can look through the squads since 2018 and you see the same pattern over and over again in almost all positions.
we are looking forward, but driving in reverse. Next stop relegation. It’s not possible without significant financial resources build a squad to play Martin’s Madeness at a tempo and with the quality to be successful. It’s not healthy in terms of club and squad continuity to play a system that other future managers and coaches would arrive, entertain for perhaps 5 seconds, and then dismiss as unworkable for all the reasons cited in the analysis and posts in this stream. As a Club we’re trying to do the impossible, eschewing simplicity for the complex, and common sense for fantasy. Our current squad could be far more successful deployed in a more conventional approach.
There’s no secret as to how to build a successful squad … add to the top of the deck, remove from the bottom of the deck. Add to the top 5-10% and cull the bottom 5-10%. We did this for the most part quite well during the Martínez to Laudrup era. However, recently we’ve been going in reverse: our top 5-10 % have been leaving and we’ve added to the middle bottom of the deck. We had Ayew replaced by Piroe. We had Rodon replaced by Bennet and now Naughton, not giving Cooper a chance. We had James replaced by Paterson of late. We had Roberts replaced by Laird and Christy. We had Nordfeldt, replaced by Woodman, replaced by Hamer. We had Bidwell and we replaced with Manning then Lati then Ogbeta who arrives and immediately gets crocked. It’s a continual spiral down. You can look through the squads since 2018 and you see the same pattern over and over again in almost all positions.
we are looking forward, but driving in reverse. Next stop relegation. It’s not possible without significant financial resources build a squad to play Martin’s Madeness at a tempo and with the quality to be successful. It’s not healthy in terms of club and squad continuity to play a system that other future managers and coaches would arrive, entertain for perhaps 5 seconds, and then dismiss as unworkable for all the reasons cited in the analysis and posts in this stream. As a Club we’re trying to do the impossible, eschewing simplicity for the complex, and common sense for fantasy. Our current squad could be far more successful deployed in a more conventional approach.
Last edited:
Yankee_Jack
Key Player
for a business exec that knows nothing about football, the first two of these data points coupled with a year over year comparison are cause for grave concern. They tell a dire story. Football is a zero sum game on the field. This story can only end in relegation if not turned around, if not now then sooner than later. In any other business it would prompt the exec to call the responsible managers into his office for a WTF meeting and demand that a plan be put in place immediately to resolve. Nothing short would be acceptable. Resolve it or be gone … Failure is not an option.
we are at that point in time where experimentation and expectation are no substitute for execution and delivery. This season is a write off … translation: a failure against expectations. The only expectation in this division is promotion. Strive for that, ultimately deliver that, or you’re spending into losses and relegation.
CroJack
Key Player
I am going to write more about something else which seems to be overlooked.
Passing football without high pressing/geggen-presing is suicidal.
That's why both Pep and Klopp value pressing and quick ball recovery so much. You won't normally see Man City and Liverpool being exposed to counter-attacks. They either steal the ball or make a tackle. Klopp uses to say that winning the ball in the opposition third is the best creative player you can have because you are only 10 - 20 yards from the opposition goal when you win the ball back.
And what do we do? We always start our attacking movements from the back. First of all, opposition goal is far away, and if you run 70 yards you get tired when you get there and you can't shoot properly. Second, you give the opposition all the time they need to re-group and organise defensively. Third, opposition preserve energy, so they can counter-attack you, and you get tired.
But even with this tactics we could improve tremendously if we crossed the ball more than we do, and of course shot more. The trick is in numbers. The crosses and shots don't even need to be accurate. When you cross and shoot it creates panic in the opposition lines, and that's more important than being accurate. And there are rebounds.
A couple of days ago I watched the Liverpool v Leicester match on TV. Liverpool had 28 crosses!!! "Effective time in football is the total amount of time that the ball is in play in the match, after removing all stoppages due to fouls, ball outs, corners, substitutions, injuries, goals, and so forth. It expresses the amount of flow in a football match. It takes some skill on the part of both teams to have a match with close to 70 minutes of effective playing time, or 40 minutes for that matter if one team is acting as destroyer." OK, let's say, Liverpool and Leicester played 70 minutes effectively, which would mean that Liverpool put in one cross every 2.5 minutes.
Why is it extremmely important to press high and keep opposition under a constant pressure when you play passing football? Because if you don't do that, then YOU are in trouble, just like the Swans are in trouble game after game. We have to labour to create something, and that's normaly of low expected goals value, and when opposition steals the ball from us they create huge chances with high expected goals value and without actually need to work hard.
Passing football without high pressing/geggen-presing is suicidal.
That's why both Pep and Klopp value pressing and quick ball recovery so much. You won't normally see Man City and Liverpool being exposed to counter-attacks. They either steal the ball or make a tackle. Klopp uses to say that winning the ball in the opposition third is the best creative player you can have because you are only 10 - 20 yards from the opposition goal when you win the ball back.
And what do we do? We always start our attacking movements from the back. First of all, opposition goal is far away, and if you run 70 yards you get tired when you get there and you can't shoot properly. Second, you give the opposition all the time they need to re-group and organise defensively. Third, opposition preserve energy, so they can counter-attack you, and you get tired.
But even with this tactics we could improve tremendously if we crossed the ball more than we do, and of course shot more. The trick is in numbers. The crosses and shots don't even need to be accurate. When you cross and shoot it creates panic in the opposition lines, and that's more important than being accurate. And there are rebounds.
A couple of days ago I watched the Liverpool v Leicester match on TV. Liverpool had 28 crosses!!! "Effective time in football is the total amount of time that the ball is in play in the match, after removing all stoppages due to fouls, ball outs, corners, substitutions, injuries, goals, and so forth. It expresses the amount of flow in a football match. It takes some skill on the part of both teams to have a match with close to 70 minutes of effective playing time, or 40 minutes for that matter if one team is acting as destroyer." OK, let's say, Liverpool and Leicester played 70 minutes effectively, which would mean that Liverpool put in one cross every 2.5 minutes.
Why is it extremmely important to press high and keep opposition under a constant pressure when you play passing football? Because if you don't do that, then YOU are in trouble, just like the Swans are in trouble game after game. We have to labour to create something, and that's normaly of low expected goals value, and when opposition steals the ball from us they create huge chances with high expected goals value and without actually need to work hard.
Last edited: