Debate for the Ages of the Ages

[Yankee_Jack]

Way back when - probably 10 years or so ago - I remember posting on a thread something along the lines of "Bale / Ramsey are going to be this era's Charles / Allchurch". Optimistic was I.

Question: Is that true? Did that come to pass? Was the potential realized?

A difficult question for those that have nothing but hearsay, the rambling of an older relative, or the rare gnarly clip of Movietone News footage on Youtube to inform on Charles / Allchurch, but are fully informed on Bale / Ramsey to have one side of the equation.

Will it take another 60 years to have a similar pair emerge from the back streets and the valleys? There was something special in the water in Swansea in the late 1920's thru 1930's to produce the Charles brothers, Allchurch brothers, Cliff Jones, Terry Medwin and others.

 

[ivoralljack]

We tended to produce families because Cliff's brother Bryn was a useful LB for us in those days. We also had the likes of Roy Paul, Trevor Ford and that hugely talented CB, Ray Daniel all big money transfers who went on to play for top clubs. Ray went on to play for Arsenal before being transferred to Sunderland (then known as The Bank of England Team) for £27.5k, a British record transfer fee for a defender. He later captained the side.

Then there was goalkeeper Jack Kelsey born in Jersey Road Llansamlet who was spotted playing for Winch Wen by Arsenal scouts and snapped up by the club. He became one of the best keepers in the world and certainly one of the best in the UK and for Wales. Strangely I believe that Gary Sprake of Leeds and Wales was born in the same street as Kelsey and he also was a top keeper.

Then there was the Hole family in Swansea who produced some good players over the years and wasn't defender Carl Slee related to them as well? Cousin I think. No doubt Swansea has produced its fair share of talent over the years. The great Jimmy Greaves said as much in one of his books, saying that, had we not been a selling club, we'd have been one of the top clubs in the Football League.

 

[Yankee_Jack]

Correct on Carl Slee a cousin to the Hole family. The Hole family ran a newsagent on Morriston cross.

 

[ivoralljack]

They also had one in Brynymor Road Swansea near the old hospital that was run by Barrie who was one of my stock audit clients. The tobacconist in Morriston was owned by the family and I sold the premises on their behalf and did the sale valuation of the stock. Talked for hours about football to Barrie although he was well into golf by then.

 

[ivoralljack]

Remember playing against Barrie for Ponty in a charity game. Someone had a go at Herbie because Barrie was wreaking havoc. "You try marking him then," snapped an exasperated Herbie, "he's almost invisible!" Barrie was some player, silky smooth and effortless.

 

[Jackflash]

Played with Barrie along with Herbie for the schoolboys, Barrie was a very deceiving player, his frail looking frame made him look easy meat for opposition players in a one on one tackle, how wrong they were.

 

[Yankee_Jack]

@Jackflash … do you mean Herbie Williams?

 

[Jackflash]

@Jackflash … do you mean Herbie Williams?

Yes, we spent most of our schooldays together, we only lived a few hundred yards apart. Think I was two months older than him.

 

[ivoralljack]

@Jackflash … do you mean Herbie Williams?

Yes, we spent most of our schooldays together, we only lived a few hundred yards apart. Think I was two months older than him.

Yankee knows the Herbie I was talking about was Herbie P who played for Ponty - a glaring example of a lower league player who, at his best, could easily have played in the Football League and done well. Ivor told me as much as did Roy "Benny" Saunders, Dean's dad. Both were great admirers of Herbie P's ability. I never had the good fortune to share the same pitch as Herbie Williams, a local legend for the Swans.

 

[ivoralljack]

PS: about Herbie. We were playing Swansea University at home on a waterlogged, mud-bath pitch (Yankee knows exactly what that meant). Their keeper cleared the ball and Herbie, who was loitering just inside our half in the centre circle, ran onto the ball and volleyed it back, NOT lobbed, straight into the net from almost 50 yards. It was disallowed for another player given offside when he was running back. In the second half, Brian Jones, another player that Ivor really rated, took a long driven pass on his chest, swivelled and juggled the ball on the edge of the penalty area, left three defenders for dead and volleyed the ball past the keeper. The ball had never touched the ground! It was disallowed for the same reason as Herbie's effort!!

We lost the game and Benny Saunders who was managing the Uni at the time said they were the finest two goals he had ever seen disallowed at any level in the game - and the referee apologised at full time telling us that another ref might well have given the goals.

 

[Jackflash]

When i played for the schoolboys we had a centre forward from St David's school, as was Barrie Hole, only ever knew him as Sticky Wheelan, always thought he was destined for a great footballing career, great striker, but never ever heard anything of him after leaving school.